Here's a useful thread from the pre-GreatCrashOf2007 stickist.com (dug up via Google): Stick ergonomics with contributions from Greg amongst others.
digitalkettle Post subject:
Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 22, 2006 - 03:10 AM
Joined: Jul 10, 2005
Posts: 580
Location: Lincolnshire, UK
Hi,
here's a question that I can't find suggestions for in any of the books (that doesn't mean it's not there, I just can't find it).
How much fingerboard can you see while wearing your Stick in standing position?
My Stick currently leans back into the body, almost touching the chest, so that I can see a sliver of wood at the 24th fret when looking down the fingerboard. It's also about 15 degrees from parallel with the torso (the greater this value is, the harder it is for the left hand to come around and grab chords).
Does this sound healthy?
_________________
Cheers, David.
SoundClick
michael Post subject: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 22, 2006 - 05:29 PM
Joined: Dec 14, 2003
Posts: 110
Cheers David,
I never got used to the Stick strap concept due to the way it is held and the dynamics involved playing it. Quite a few Stickists play the Stick in a sitting or prone position making the Touchboard visual for every note played. As far as your left hand question, it is time spent playing that really matters. I use my own Stick Stand to give me the sitting feel standing up and I see every fret played and then some.
levisj125 Post subject: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 22, 2006 - 08:27 PM
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 552
Location: Sydney, Australia
Your positioning doesn't sound too bad, but then again, I'm a newbie! Based on various articles, emails and sections of Greg Howard's Stick Book, I think these are the key things to look out for :
1. The first fingerboard inlay should be roughly level with your left shoulder.
2. The belt hook should be roughly in the centre of your body. (Or slightly left of that.)
3. The angle of the Stick should be such that you can comfortably get both hands parallel to the fretboard with no noticeable wrist strain.
4. The Stick should pretty much sit where you want to play it. If you continually feel the need to pull the Stick closer to your head, you might need to tighten the shoulder strap.
In my case, I also found using a standard belt to not be solid enough, so I went to a hiking/outdoor store and bought some 2" webbing and clips to make my own belt. I've ended up with a nice wide belt with 3 layers where the hook sits and it cost me stuff all!
From memory, I do recall it being a bit difficult to see the fingerboard at the higher frets, so would probably need to lean over the Stick a bit if playing higher registers.
Cheers,
Justin
digitalkettle Post subject: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 23, 2006 - 12:53 AM
Joined: Jul 10, 2005
Posts: 580
Location: Lincolnshire, UK
Thanks for the responses.
levisj125 wrote:
Your positioning doesn't sound too bad, but then again, I'm a newbie! Based on various articles, emails and sections of Greg Howard's Stick Book...
As well as the books and stuff, I've been looking at loads of photos to get an idea...just couldn't find one that showed the tilt. I don't think it's optimal to be adjusting it too much whilst playing...although that would make for a static stage presence! I'm sure I remember a post where [someone said that] Greg advocated the use of the left foot for tapping time. Maybe I'm imagining that but it makes sense. Why are expression pedals always on the right of pedalboards!!?
Video footage has been useful too but there isn't so much of that (I wish Rob Martino would retune to 5ths
).
levisj125 wrote:
In my case, I also found using a standard belt to not be solid enough, so I went to a hiking/outdoor store and bought some 2" webbing and clips to make my own belt. I've ended up with a nice wide belt with 3 layers where the hook sits and it cost me stuff all!
Nice one. I got one of these from Ebay:
Sounds similar to yours...although the extra thickness may be handy.
_________________
Cheers, David.
SoundClick
jstorm Post subject: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 23, 2006 - 07:54 PM
Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 114
digitalkettle wrote:
I'm sure I remember a post where [someone said that] Greg advocated the use of the left foot for tapping time. Maybe I'm imagining that but it makes sense. Why are expression pedals always the right of pedalboards!!? Wink
You are not imagining that. When I had a lesson with Greg last year, much discussion was spent tapping with the non-dominant foot (left for most people). Since I do most of my playing while sitting, this technique does not interfere with right foot pedal control
jstorm
digitalkettle Post subject: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 24, 2006 - 02:39 AM
Joined: Jul 10, 2005
Posts: 580
Location: Lincolnshire, UK
jstorm wrote:
You are not imagining that. When I had a lesson with Greg last year, much discussion was spent tapping with the non-dominant foot (left for most people). Since I do most of my playing while sitting, this technique does not interfere with right foot pedal control
Ah, thanks for the sanity check, Jim.
So I also have to change my stage act and start putting my *left* foot up on the monitor!!?
_________________
Cheers, David.
SoundClick
Greg Post subject: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 24, 2006 - 09:19 AM
Joined: Apr 14, 2006
Posts: 658
Hi folks,
First, thanks to Justin for chiming in. I have one correction to make: the belt hook is slightly to your right, not left, on most people. I don't think I've ever recommended that it be left of center. Newbies need to be careful when they give advice about these kinds of things.
I wrote a detailed response to this question from David on Stickwire, which I'll quote below.
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.e ... =0&P=40229Happy Tapping,
Greg
levisj125 wrote:
Your positioning doesn't sound too bad, but then again, I'm a newbie! Based on various articles, emails and sections of Greg Howard's Stick Book, I think these are the key things to look out for :
1. The first fingerboard inlay should be roughly level with your left shoulder.
2. The belt hook should be roughly in the centre of your body. (Or slightly left of that.)
3. The angle of the Stick should be such that you can comfortably get both hands parallel to the fretboard with no noticeable wrist strain.
4. The Stick should pretty much sit where you want to play it. If you continually feel the need to pull the Stick closer to your head, you might need to tighten the shoulder strap.
In my case, I also found using a standard belt to not be solid enough, so I went to a hiking/outdoor store and bought some 2" webbing and clips to make my own belt. I've ended up with a nice wide belt with 3 layers where the hook sits and it cost me stuff all!
From memory, I do recall it being a bit difficult to see the fingerboard at the higher frets, so would probably need to lean over the Stick a bit if playing higher registers.
Cheers,
Justin
jrjmusic Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 24, 2006 - 09:56 AM
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 294
Down here late in the thread I would like to add something that I found nothing less than revoloutionary. Many years ago in a galaxy far far away while
playing a guitar Shocked the sun was streaming into the windows like golden
butter and on the wall was cast a shadow of my hands playing. I started watching
just the shadow Twisted Evil and as I played fell into a kind of trance. Suddenly
I was playing way beyond my usual skill level making things happen that
normally were very dificult. So over the years when conditions were right
I would get into that "shadow playing" mode. But never took it that seriously. Ok then a few weeks ago I was watching the Greg H. Videos on the net, the long ones, and I just thought to my self "I want to be able to do that!"
A little voice in my head responded "use a mirror" Arrow Idea So I
tried this and was reminded of my shadow playing. This is not so much about watching yourself play as not looking down. Great players don't
look (that much) and in my experience "looking" as necessary as it
is is something to grow out of Confused So I did this playing into the mirror
and a number of things happened. The most valuable thing has been
more left handed independence. But also being able to move horizontally
up and down the fret board has improved dramatically. Also you don't get a neck ache Wink
jrj
_________________
Dreams Are Set To Blossom Courage
http://www.myspace.com/jrjwhatifthepaintingshadsongs glitch Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 24, 2006 - 11:53 AM
Joined: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 41
Location: Chicago, USA & Hua Hin, Thailand
jrjmusic wrote:
I started watching just the shadow Twisted Evil and as I played fell into a kind of trance. Suddenly I was playing way beyond my usual skill level making things happen that normally were very dificult.
When I was a teenager just having learned to play guitar, I would occasionally come in some lazy afternoon from having mowed the yard (or some other physical chore) and plop down on the bed with my guitar. Laying on my back with my eyes closed, I'd let my fingers wander whereever they wanted across the fretboard, and after a while I'd be in that same sort of "in between" trance state -- halfway napping and half awake.
I consistently noticed the same thing; that my fingers were actually accomplishing moves I wouldn't or couldn't normally play. After a while, I began intentionally engaging in this same sort of "trance practice" regularly. There are techniques and approaches it taught me that I never would have chanced upon by normal rote practice.
Now that I think about it, I oughta try doing that more often with the Stick...
Back a little closer to topic: is anybody else having issues with learning the feel of the fret positions on the Stick? I'm trying to let my hands float as much as possible. But at the same time they're all over the farkin' place, so it's really difficult to play without spending all my time staring down at the fretboard.
This isn't helped by the fact that the Stick seems designed to have a relatively flexible position and can "float" so easily. It feels like I'm trying to learn on a moving target.
In my case, I'm also using the Slider strap (which is a heckuva lot more comfortable than stuffing the darn thing down my pants or using a support belt). However, this setup allows the Stick to float even more than normal. I've taken to threading the Stick's shoulder strap under the Slider strap, which secures the top half of the Stick so it's immovable against my shoulder (but also jams in the hard leather shoulder strap so it rubs against my left collar bone -- ouch!).
Anybody else have any tips for learning hand & fret position reliably?
-- glitch.@#$%!
_________________
"Now Simulcast on Crazy People's Fillings"
twizzle Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 25, 2006 - 02:19 AM
Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 785
Location: UK
Re Glitch:
It's not much use for you lot really, but the first stick I ever tried, just a month or so before I got one - had been vandalised by someone! That's not a far comment really, but there's this guy in America who carves grooves into the back of the stick in places that correspond with the fret markers. The idea is that your thumbs can 'feel' where they are. It sounds like it could be a good idea, but I could barely get a note out of it then, let alone work out if that was a good idea .......
_________________
http://www.myspace.com/golchenhttp://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Golchen Greg Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 25, 2006 - 03:53 PM
Joined: Apr 14, 2006
Posts: 658
Hi folks,
Looking into a mirror is a really great idea. I often recommend it to my students.
On the other subject of lerarning where the notes are. If you spend some time playing things that are very familiar to you, you can start to develop the instinctive understanding of where the notes are and how the intervals feel.
Recently, I started working a lot with the Alto, and I was amazed how much muscle memory was tricking me into overplaying. Minor 3rds become major 3rds, just because the frets are that much closer together relative to the nut. So I tend to play the Alto with my eyes open a lot more...
One thing I like to try is to close my eyes and "visualize" the fretboard. Not only can I direct my hands without looking down, I can actually "see" both of them at the same time (try doing that with your eyes open:)
Happy Tapping,
Greg
glitch wrote:
jrjmusic wrote:
I started watching just the shadow Twisted Evil and as I played fell into a kind of trance. Suddenly I was playing way beyond my usual skill level making things happen that normally were very dificult.
When I was a teenager just having learned to play guitar, I would occasionally come in some lazy afternoon from having mowed the yard (or some other physical chore) and plop down on the bed with my guitar. Laying on my back with my eyes closed, I'd let my fingers wander whereever they wanted across the fretboard, and after a while I'd be in that same sort of "in between" trance state -- halfway napping and half awake.
I consistently noticed the same thing; that my fingers were actually accomplishing moves I wouldn't or couldn't normally play. After a while, I began intentionally engaging in this same sort of "trance practice" regularly. There are techniques and approaches it taught me that I never would have chanced upon by normal rote practice.
Now that I think about it, I oughta try doing that more often with the Stick...
Back a little closer to topic: is anybody else having issues with learning the feel of the fret positions on the Stick? I'm trying to let my hands float as much as possible. But at the same time they're all over the farkin' place, so it's really difficult to play without spending all my time staring down at the fretboard.
This isn't helped by the fact that the Stick seems designed to have a relatively flexible position and can "float" so easily. It feels like I'm trying to learn on a moving target.
In my case, I'm also using the Slider strap (which is a heckuva lot more comfortable than stuffing the darn thing down my pants or using a support belt). However, this setup allows the Stick to float even more than normal. I've taken to threading the Stick's shoulder strap under the Slider strap, which secures the top half of the Stick so it's immovable against my shoulder (but also jams in the hard leather shoulder strap so it rubs against my left collar bone -- ouch!).
Anybody else have any tips for learning hand & fret position reliably?
-- glitch.@#$%!
jrjmusic Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 25, 2006 - 03:59 PM
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 294
I think the carving part sounds a bit extreme but the idea of a tactile marker is tantalizing Laughing I will try some easily removable tape.
_________________
Dreams Are Set To Blossom Courage
http://www.myspace.com/jrjwhatifthepaintingshadsongs levisj125 Post subject: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 25, 2006 - 04:43 PM
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 552
Location: Sydney, Australia
Greg wrote:
I have one correction to make: the belt hook is slightly to your right, not left, on most people. I don't think I've ever recommended that it be left of center. Newbies need to be careful when they give advice about these kinds of things.
Sorry Greg, I should have clarified that the "or slightly left" comment was just what works for me, not what you normally recommend. I just found that with the particular belt that I'm using, if I have it centred or slightly to the right, the angle of the Stick is a bit too much to get my hands nicely parallel, so have ended up having it just slightly left of centre. This phenomenon probably depends on the sagginess of one's belt, I imagine. Smile
Cheers,
Justin
Greg Post subject: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 25, 2006 - 04:55 PM
Joined: Apr 14, 2006
Posts: 658
Hi Justin,
I stlll can't see it. Try raising the Stick angle by tightening the shoulder strap and move the belt hook back over a bit to the right.
This might be a different angle than you think would be best, but there's simply no way to have a centered approach if the belthook is over to the left at all.
Any way you can have someone take a picture of you with the instrument on? That would really help.
Cheers,
Greg
levisj125 wrote:
Greg wrote:
I have one correction to make: the belt hook is slightly to your right, not left, on most people. I don't think I've ever recommended that it be left of center. Newbies need to be careful when they give advice about these kinds of things.
Sorry Greg, I should have clarified that the "or slightly left" comment was just what works for me, not what you normally recommend. I just found that with the particular belt that I'm using, if I have it centred or slightly to the right, the angle of the Stick is a bit too much to get my hands nicely parallel, so have ended up having it just slightly left of centre. This phenomenon probably depends on the sagginess of one's belt, I imagine. Smile
Cheers,
Justin
levisj125 Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Pitch, tilt, whatever PostPosted: Jun 25, 2006 - 07:32 PM
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 552
Location: Sydney, Australia
Thanks Greg, I'll play around with positioning tonight and see where it ends up. If I still prefer it left of centre, I'll take a few pics and email them to you.
P.S: David - sorry to whore your thread, but I guess it's all kinda related. :p
Cheers,
Justin
RSS
Photo Gallery
