Hi Palamedes - What a wealth of information in these replies. Now you have an idea of our community.

I'm a career musician and I strive to get the best instrument possible for my work. A lot goes into the design and building of a virtuoso's instrument.

Emmett's attention to that end gives each of us in the Stick Community an instrument of that caliber. I know of no other musical instrument that has this unique, singular level of excellence.

You can get guitars, pianos and so on at different levels of quality.
With the Stick you get the ultimate in your hands right from the start.
As a beginner every move you'll make is much easier than on an instrument of average or poor quality.

The nerd side of you has probably already seen the logic in the tunings and the crossed hand playing. Get Steve Adelson's Mel Bay book and DVD and you'll see even more interesting things.
Have fun!

Sean Stirling, Musician Under Construction
http://seanstirling.stickist.com/

Well Palamedes, I can easily say I am in the same boat as you right now when it comes to the decision making.

I have never owned a Stick or a Megatar and for the longest time have been looking into the Stick, but recently I looked into the Megatar and now I face some more options.

Basically I can say to you the Stick is one of those instruments that just feels like the one, where when you first set eyes on it or see it you find nothing gimmicky about it.

I've done my fair share of research, and went from ERB's to Sticks, and I can honestly tell you with the exclusion of the stick, the rest just seem to gimmicky and awkward IMO.

That's not to say they are, but lets face it, I suppose you can't really tell till you play it..

I am on a teenager's budget so the Megatar holds that huge perk, but nothing is worse then rushing into buying something and regretting it.

I found some interesting MP3's that compare the Stick to the Megatar, the same tune being used for both.

Chapman Stick: http://megatar.com/stickvsmegatar/waltz-stick.mp3

Megatar: http://megatar.com/stickvsmegatar/waltz-megatar.mp3

This should definitely aid you in your decision like it did me.
There was also some interesting and informative commentary to go along with the videos but it was way to biased so I won't bother posting the link.

Good Luck!

The one thing you can't tell is the playability and feel until you've compared both. I have a unique insight to this having owned a Megetar in the past. Like I said in an eariler reply the Megetar is a legit instrument. The one i had was made well and was as advertised. That being said the frets didn't have the great feel the Stick fretrods (older) or fret rails have and I've owned Sticks with both rods and rails. And the big turn off for me was the width of the Megetar neck. Mine was in bass bottom tuning and I could barely reach the low B string. Perhaps with inverted 5ths tuning it would be better but that throws out the "easier to learn bass bottom tuning" the Megetar advertises.

In short both the Meg and Stick are true tapping instruments and both use "Emmett's" two hand tapping method. All I can say is you do get with you pay for. IMO Frets aren't as good as rods or rails, the big Megetar strap doesn't hold the instrument in as good of a position as the belt hook and strap of the Stick and although the build quailty of the Megetar is good the build quality of the Stick is perfection.

Let me put it another way ... I went from owning an old Stick to buying a new Megetar. It was cheaper, new and at the time I was struggling with inverted 5ths bass tuning. After not being happy with struggling to play the bass strings on the Megetar because of the wide neck I got so put off I sold it and stopped playing tapping instruments completely for several years. Last year I got the BUG to try a Stick again and since then I've bought two Sticks and an NS Stick and love them so much I've sold my bass guitars and have never looked back! I can do all my bass guitar player parts on the NS Stick just fine! For me the bass guitar has become obsolete!

Of course this is a Stick forum so we're all into the Stick big time ... but there's a reason for that. There is no replacement for a Stick Enterprises instrument. And if you want "Bass Bottom" Tuning you can get an SB8 or an NS Stick. You'll still have the wonderful sound, build quailty and playability that you only get with a Stick! The reason NS Sticks and SB8s have 8 strings is so you can actually reach and play the bass strings! Big difference! But don't sell the inverted 5ths bass short either. AS I'm learning there's MAGIC in that tuning!

Good luck ...

Hi dasdude0325,

Even when comparative advertising is well-executed, since the goal is a one-sided presentation of "the facts," it's an inherently misleading tactic, because it implies a certain equivalency of performance, which Ray has pretty much dealt with in his comments.

The sound of these samples is terrible. I've never heard a Stick sound murky like that, and the amount of hum on the other track is horrendous. Do you really find them helpful? Please don't base your assumptions about what The Stick sounds like on them (too bad for the person who might...)

What Ray writes about playability says it all. You're talking about learning a new way of making music. I've tried lots of non-Stick tapping instruments over the years and none of them played as well as even the old polycarbonate Stick I used to own.

There's a used 10-string purple heart on ebay right now with fret rods a flight case, fully intonatable bridge and adjustable truss with a current bid of $1395...

Most of us started out with used Sticks, myself inscluded. I bought a used ironwood for $600 in 1985. It was a great instrument but it didn't have all of the adjustable features on the instrument I just mentioned. According to the Consumer price index that $600 would be worth about twice that amount in todays dollars.

Hi, Guys,

Chiming here. But not much. Busy days. Just to say hello.

Of course, I actually do think that the Megatar has a superior design -- that's why we build them that way -- but I'm not like the Celtics fan who rushes to the Lakers bleachers to convert them. That's just silly.

Asking Lakers' fans what they think of the Celtics has kind of predictable results.

And ... that as it should be.

Some of it's bogus -- like Steve Leaveatip claiming we don't have markers every five frets; poor fellow, hasn't examined the fretboard he's telling you about -- and some other fellow talking about thievery -- but, hey, difference of opinion is to be expected.

Just to clarify one thing. There are several different debates that we could have. Tunings are one of them. It's my opinion that the typical newbie can learn faster with strings in fourths. But some folks (as are good players) think differently. And you can get the Stick-style tuning on a Megatar, or the Megatar-style tuning on a Stick. Fact.

And whichever you choose ... you'll find out.

God bless you all. Nice to know there's still good team spirit around here.

And, two things are really, really true. (1) The Stick folks have a great community. (2) If you get *any* tapping instrument, you can have a heck of a lot of music and fun in your life.

I will happily discuss the merits, value, and and features of the Megatar. But this is not a very good place to have that discussion. There will be just too much shouting down, strong opinions, and sometimes a little mud-slinging. There's no point to all that. It doesn't lead to any clarity of mind, nor music.

Any Lakers fans here?

-- Traktor

PS: If you want to read about my theivery, read Band of Thieves.

@Traktor; Where would you say an unbiased opinion on the matter can be found?

I'll take your word on it. Honestly however, as bad as you claim the clips to be I still thought the Stick sounded better....

But to clarify on the matter, I would never base my assumptions on the stick's quality from just those 2 clips alone, and obviously there is a lot more to consider than just tone. I also strongly agree that you get what you pay for, but nevertheless i felt the clips were something to ponder...

@Palamedes I found a very interesting thread on tappistry.org forums where the OP pretty much had the same question. It is rather short but a few of the responders own both instruments. hope this helps

http://www.tappistry.org/forum/showthre ... eadid=1566

Palamedes,


For what it's worth, I could have written your above post not too long ago. Here's what I have learned over the past 2+ years since I first touched a Stick.

1. Would you be concerned that the piano was biting off more than you could chew if you were considering learning that? To us musically challenged techies, the Stick looks far more complicated than it is. When you boil it down, it's two hands working to make music...sometimes together, sometimes independently.

2. Music is based on music theory. Learn that as you learn to play and you can adapt to any instrument. Obviously a violin is different from a guitar...there is different technique involved. But it's just making the same notes and/or chords on a different device. I guess maybe drumming is different...but I think you catch my drift.

3. Greg wrote "Of course, the choice is yours. But if you are interested in learning how to make music this way, there is an abundance of instructional material available, from a variety of players, that supports Emmett's inverted 5ths bass/ 4ths melody tunings, all written by experienced musicians. Much of it is geared for beginners and would provide a strong foundation for anyone no matter what their musical skill level was going in." Truer words were never spoken. I am convinced that whatever small success I have had started with my purchase of Gregs book and Bob's lessons on tape. When I got about as far as I was able to using those, I was lucky enough to attend a seminar held by Steve Adelson which led to me becoming one of his students. For me, nothing beats live, one-on-one tutelage from someone who really knows music and our instrument of choice...The Chapman Stick.

Lastly, I took delivery of a new Stick (to replace the first one I got which was used) about 18 months ago. When I placed my order I ordered a 10-string...despite the advice of my soon-to-be instructor who suggested I bite the bullet and get the fully equipped 12-String . It didn't take long for me to realize he was right and about 6 months ago I called SE and put myself on the list for one. For me, having the extra string on the bass side makes the 12-String worth it.

Hope that helps.
Jim

Gee ... that's a toughie.

Maybe Steve Adel- No. No, that won't work.

Maybe Greg How- No. Now I think about it, nope.

How about Trak- No. That wouldn't be unbiased.

Actually, I pretty much think that anyone is going to be biased by their own opinion. Some like Fords, some like Chevrolets.

The problem, in your situation, is that you can't trot down to the local music store and try them both off the wall. I wish there was an easy answer. But the way you're going about it is probably a reasonable approach. You ask who you can, you try instruments if you can. You read up, and see what makes sense to you. If you want to call me, you can. But I won't be unbiased. It was a belief that some things might be better done in a different way that led me to become involved in the creation of the Megatar instrument.

Many folks here have never played both, so it's hard for them to judge. Some may have played both, but it might be comparing an older Stick with a newer Megatar, or vice versa. The setup and the tuning can be quite an issue. And if you use the wrong positioning you may not find your hands that comfortable.

I wish I had a clear answer for you. I can give you the facts about the features that I believe increase the value of the Megatar (tiltback head, dual truss, Buzz Feiten Intonation system, etc etc). Others here can give you facts about the features that they believe increase the value of the Stick (triangular frets, and whatever else it might be).

But an unbiased authority source?

While you can find some people who will tell you that they know "the truth" and that those other people are wrong, I don't think that's much of an indicator.

If you want to chat with me, my phone and email are on our website. Others here, equally good-willed and concerned for your good, will also be happy to chat with you.

You'll probably have to make a leap of faith in the end. Most here would report that they did. And most people who make that leap of faith, regardless of whether they tap Stick or something else, usually report that two-handed tapping (or touchstyle, as some people call it) is very satisfying.

Don't overlook, in the argument, that the main thing is playing the instrument by two-handed tapping. And that's good news.

Good luck.

Just quoting what busy bee "Two Handed Tapping Traktor Topaz" wrote on Pal's blog below:

"And you could get it tuned in fourths, in the BassBottom tuning, and then notice your learning speed approximately double that of learning the pat-your-head and rub-your-tummy chapman tunings which are different on the bass and the melody strings. Just an idea. If you have questions, or would like me to prove my wild assertions, contact me through the Mobius website. The Stick is a wonderful instrument. I learned to play it once. And I think you’ll find even *more* in the Megatar, due to its later design and faster-learning tuning."

I would like traktor to prove his wild assertions as he offered to Pal. Can he point us to even one person who's really tearing it up with that easy-to-learn tuning? Just one? It's been around for many years now. There ought to be some really skilled players using it by now. I'm looking around for those videos and I just can't seem to find them.

an unbiased opinion
Ray knows what he's talking about. He bought a Megatar and even made some pretty kind comments about how it's made. Anyone who wants to do so can reread his earlier posts in this thread. They're all pretty clear.

contradictions
Traktor's made a pointed effort to come across here as a reasonable person, all for the good of two-handed tapping etc, etc, but how does that square with attacking the most popular tuning people use to make music this way? Just because it didn't work for him doesn't make it bad.

Oh I forgot, he wrote on Pal's blog that he actually did learn how to play the Stick once.

Which tuning was that instrument in?

So what to believe about what he says his actual experience is.

option A. That he never actually learned how to play The Stick in Emmett's tuning (contrary to the post on Pal's blog) and that he suddenly made great progress on his new easier tuning which he has been using for many years now (something his own videos don't really support).

or

option B. That he once learned how to play The Stick, but that that learning had no influence whatsoever on how he learned how to play in his tuning (and again I must ask, where's the proof of learning in any case?)

I have to say the best thing Traktor ever did for all of us was to put his demo videos online. We finally have something by which we can judge all of his rhetoric.

In the blogosphere, opinions are the gold standard, facts are just lead weights that burden the argument, but the true marketing alchemist is never daunted by them, and can turn even the most hardcore fact into a bright, shiny, malleable opinion (when it suits his purposes).