I'd like to add a little food for thought. I owned a Megetar some years back ... bought the hype and wanted to save money and I was not satisified ... it's long gone. The Megetar isn't a bad instrument for the money but it's not at all IMO in the same league as the Stick. You do get what you pay for. ACTUALLY the Stick is a STEAL for the money!

Second I found the Megetar very hard to play because the neck is so darn wide ... especially when using the "bass bottom tuning." The NS Stick follows the normal 4ths tuning however it has 8 strings so is easy to play.

I'm sure in the right hands the Megetar can make some fine music ... I'm NOT going to slam it. It's a real honest to god playable tap instrument. However it isn't the same as a Stick, it's cheaper ... yes ... but IMO you get with you pay for and because of the neck width I feel it's actually a harder instrument to play then a Stick.

BTW I own both a grand Stick and an NS Stick so i have both bass tunings. The regular 4ths tuning of the NS Stick (And the Megetar with bass bottom tuning) has some advantages in regard to playing single note bass parts but the inverted 5ths bass tuning Emmett invented has amazing advantages when it comes to playing left hand chords and bass parts at the same time.

So in short ... do yourself a favor ... buy a Stick!

You have to be very careful here. Yes ... if budget is a concern you could conceivably do this but I would try to avoid it personally.

For starters, playing a guitar in a standard way that a teacher might be able to help you with and tapping are very different. If you were looking for a standard technique to prepare you for a Stick, I would suggest spending some time on the piano long before I would suggest spending time on a guitar.

Secondly, one thing I'm sure everyone would agree on is that good setup is crucial for the playability of any tapping instrument. I would be very concerned about the experience of trying to tap on an inexpensive guitar putting you off tapping or even playing music forever.

If you can afford to buy a Stick, the resale is generally very good on them if for some reason you decide it's not for you. In the mean time though, you have loads of help available. The internet, great books and videos, players all over (including several in Texas), and a continuous stream of seminars.

Hey Palamedes, I just now noticed you live in the same town as I do! If you want to get together sometime and really see and hear what the Stick is all about, I'd be happy to oblige. I took the "leap of faith" when I bought my first Stick; I never had the chance to touch one. Now I don't play anything else. Send me a PM here and we'll hook up sometime!

I've never tried a Megatar, but I've seen the Youtube clips and they confirm what I already know: There is nothing that sounds like a Stick. I don't know about the playability of the Megatar, but I can't imagine better action and clarity of execution than the Stick. It's like the BMW of tapping instruments. The Ultimate Tapping Machine!

Hi Pal,

First off, I will echo the sentiments expressed by a few folks already. Whatever instrument you decide to get, we all share Emmett's Free Hands method as the foundation for how the instruments work, and all are welcome here, provided that they don't just use this forum to market their products or trash others. There's a section of this forum specifically designated for use by players who use this method on other instruments, even traditional guitar and bass, though it doesn't get much use:

http://www.stickist.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=17

What Traktor claims about his tuning has yet to be proven, even though it's been around for several years now. Even on his own instrument there are few examples of people using that tuning, mostly him. The more skilled Megatar players I've seen all use one of Emmett's tunings or, as Stephane pointed to, Jan uses an uncrossed tuning (Jan and Dino Haak learned how to play on The Stick, I believe, not the Megatar). So that all seems a little disconnected from what Traktor is trying to convince you to believe.

The biggest drawback to having 6 strings in 4ths starting on a low B is that the chords you can play don't even fall into the guitar range until you move way up the fretboard. On a 10-string Stick, starting at low C, the range is 4 frets higher to begin with. So you don't need 12 strings to get a lot out of a fretboard tapping instrument. 10 is plenty.

There are lots of things to consider about how your choices will affect learning how to play independently with two hands, so I'll break them some down for you:

1. The method is not about the tuning
Learning the Free Hands method, on any tuning, has more to do with developing independence and other basic technique skills than on learning "where the notes are." As an analogy, you can learn all the words you want but that doesn't mean you know how to put them together to speak a language. It seems like Traktor never learned how to "speak tap", so he just tried to invent another language. As a sales tactic he tells people that it's easier to learn. You can look at his own videos to see if you think he's succeeded.

2. The technology of tapping
As Steve put so well in his post, any kind of comparison of the two instruments implies a certain qualitative equivalence. Instruments are about how they sound and how they feel and play, not about measurements and "features." The Stick is unique on so many levels. Instead of using standard guitar technologies, which are designed to support the way a guitar is usually played, Emmett has developed an instrument specifically for tapping, with new technologies that support that method of play introduced along the way:

http://www.stick.com/history/timeline/ and http://www.stick.com/instruments/

Since Emmett actually knows how to play, his experience and desire to make the method work better and better have driven his design innovations, not gimmicky marketing strategies.

3. Any tuning is possible on any Stick made since 1991
You can set up any Stick made since 1991 with the tuning of your choice, and SE doesn't charge any extra for making instruments with custom tunings. If you want to try a different tuning, or change from light to heavy strings, there's no arcane intonation system to worry about, and you can get excellent help from this community along the way. There are several people on this board who use non-inverted 5ths tunings.

4. Tunings, scale length and tapping
Based on what I know about how tapping works, my opinion is that Emmett's inverted 5ths bass tuning actually makes the instrument much more versatile, expands the range of the accompaniment hand, and makes a whole new world of orchestration available on a stringed instrument, involving simultaneous use of bass and chords. Playing chords in the bass range and scale is not easy in 4ths (with the lone exception being 7th chords, which are also very easy in inverted 5ths) In inverted 5ths dozens of different kinds of chords can be played with a span of only 3 frets, which makes playing them pretty easy even close to the nut on a bass scale instrument.

These chords are also right next to and can incorporate the lowest bass strings, making it easy to integrate chords and bass into one part (not so in a 4ths tuning that starts on low B, which places all the chords in a very low pitch range by comparison). So the scale length and tuning have very practical implications for the instrument's usefulness (not that Traktor ever talks about that either, but he sure loves those low-range 7th chords...).

5. Parallel geometry of the inverted 5ths bass/ melody 4ths tunings.
It's actually a lot easier to find your way around the inverted 5ths bass tuning than some people would lead you to believe. The melody 4ths and inverted 5ths bass string groups have a "reciprocal" relationship that makes chords the same shape in both hands, but as inversions of each other.

here's an example (frets are represented by vertical lines):


In the 4ths the C is the highest note of the chord, and in the inverted 5ths it is the lowest.

You have the same visual pattern of notes on each set of strings, which, together with Emmett's inlays every 5 frets, makes it easy to remember where the notes are in both string groups (Steve has a nice section about this in his Stickology Book and DVD).

Another visual example of this is the Matched Reciprocal tuning chart:
http://www.stick.com/instruments/tunings/10/mr/


So those are a few points to consider. There are a lot of other ones having to do with ergonomics, but this post is getting long enough...

Of course, the choice is yours. But if your are interested in learning how to make music this way, there is an abundance of instructional material available, from a variety of payers, that supports Emmett's inverted 5ths bass/ 4ths melody tunings, all written by experienced musicians. Much of it is geared for beginners and would provide a strong foundation for anyone no matter what their musical skill level was going in.

Check it out:

http://www.stick.com/instruction/

Used Sticks are not uncommon, and you really only need 10 strings to get going. The basic method is the same on 10 or 12 strings. They have a proven track record of holding their value well.

Check out the classifieds here, look on ebay, check out the stickwire list-serve.

onto to another issue...

As far as the term touchstyle is concerned, that's just a marketing term Traktor and a few others use, invented in the 1990s and adopted as a banner around which folks who want to compete with Emmett, without giving him credit for the method they use on their own instruments, can rally. There are several manufacturers of tapping instruments who don't use the term (Marcodi and Kelstone come to mind), and no major tapping bass and guitar players have adopted it. Emmett and Stick Enterprises have never used it, nor did any of the early tappers who used methods different from Emmett's (though this is something people who call their products touchstyle never tell people, acting instead as if the term has been around since the middle of the 20th century). Two-handed tapping is what most people call two-handed tapping, and Emmett named his method, where the hands are fingers line up with the frets in both hands, "Free Hands." Touchstyle is more of a political party and a marketing strategy than a way of making music. Consequently, you won't find it used very often here.

You can read about the origin of Free Hands here:
http://www.emmettchapman.net/music/freehandsmethod.html

and here:
http://www.stick.com/articles/evolution

Your fears about a discussion of this developing into a "holy war" are understandable. Sometimes things erupt into a fight. But there are always well-meaning people who will put their two cents in. Their posts should be easy to spot

Welcome to the forum.

Hey Hey Hey,

My first thought is taking up any new instrument is a monumental undertaking and requires lots of time and practice. Having never played leaves you free from all the baggage from other instruments, and are in effect a clean slate. Having gone to some of the seminars with the likes of Greg and Steve, they will point you in the right direction for sure, even before you buy on.

Understanding the basics of music in general, chords, melody, rhythm for me has been starting on the piano. Taking some lessons here will give you a good reference point for any instument you wish to pursue.

Just my thoughts,

Tim Laren

So firstly, wow.. thank you all very much for your responses.. You've given me a LOT to think about.. Plus it really speaks volumes about a community when someone completely new shows up and asks a question that has likely been asked a dozen times before and everyone responds with well written and thoughtful responses..

Thank you. I promise to answer each one in kind so bear with me.

My initial question after reading all this is (and I think someone addressed this already but I'd like to take it a step farther); What are the big advantages / disadvantages of playing crossed vs uncrossed? Is it just a personal preference thing or does it "matter" in some cases?

It would seem to me (keeping in mind I've never held a stick) that it would be more comfortable to play uncrossed so as you're not reaching across the whole board..

@grandstick: Qua Veda did in deed start basically where I am now and that's a good sign. I have always firmly believed that if I could do something, anyone else could. I think he is of the same mindset which means I might actually be able to pull this off!! heh

@JRJ: Amen brother. The community will draw me as much as the instrument. A strong community can really save or kill a product and so far people who like the stick REALLY like it.. almost to the point of a religious fervor.. I like that.

It's fun talking to someone who gets genuinely excited about something because that excitement rubs off and makes me excited too!

I have thought about the chapman stick for a while and have seen them played in public a couple times (by Heartstrings which I'll get to ) so really I kind of had my heart set on one. I had never heard of the Megatar until Traktor brought it up and am willing to give it its due consideration. I have the rest of my life to learn this so there is no rush.

@Olivier: hehe I don't think the Megatar is ugly at all, infact I think its a pretty instrument. But what an instrument looks like isn't nearly as important as what it sounds like or how it performs.

@grozoell: You make an interesting point. I'd like to hear from someone who got a stick, then got the Megatar and preferred it. That way I can say I have a fully rounded set of opinions. (Someone other than traktor please..hehe)

@stephane: I will admit that I think Jan Laurenz did a great job! But dear god that thing looks wide. His hand looks like it's one poke away from cramping up.. heh

@EricTheGray: I do hope that Traktor chimes in. I'm more than willing to hear everyones opinions, thoughts and beliefs. I will admit I was leaning towards the stick before I saw the Megatar, and continue to lean towards it now.. But I do like hearing everyones opinions.

@Lee Vatip: The inlays will help me as a new comer I'm sure of that. I hadn't even noticed until you mentioned it! Another point for the stick.

@thewildest: I do need to learn some basic musical concepts. I remember some of it vaguely from when I was in middle school but not much. But I can read, and as a software engineer am well versed in researching problems so this shouldn't be an issue. =) And since I am in Austin I'm lucky enough to have all manner of musicians around me which helps where inspiration is needed.

@88persuader: Having never held either the stick or the megatar I can't speak for experience, but I agree with you on the neck width. The stick looks easier to play just based on that.

@gpoorman: Doh.. and here I was thinking of selling my piano to afford the stick. Now I have to play on it a bit.. =)

@heartstrings: I would love to have a chat with you regarding the stick. I'm completely new to it and at this point lets be honest, music in general -- so I'd need to start very basic. But anything you'd be willing to show me would be great. I did actually see you once at the Barton Creek Mall, but was late for a meeting (thats all we do at IBM) so I couldn't stop and watch for very long. Yall sounded great!

Though I think you had your sticks on stands or something.. which I thought was odd.. heh

@greg: wow great post greg.. thanks! Much of what you said to be honest was over my head.. but I'll keep coming back to it until I understand what you're talking about.. I did order Steve Adelson's book/dvd combo as well as Emmetts free hands tuning book to give me something to read. Or atleast to give me some more ideas about whats going on..

@larsyn: I need to get out all my piano books and start pouring over them again.. I have forgotten most of it at this point.. but you make a good point.. The basic stuff translates very nicely between just about any instrument..

All in all gang I'm not in a rush.. I have the rest of my life to learn this stuff and it's not like the stick is going to go away any time soon.

There are two different things to consider. One is crossed vs uncrossed and the other is a split tuning vs a straight tuning.

Let me clarify ...

Something like an NS/Stick is tuned in straight 4ths. A few others are tuned that way as well. One of the things I like about the classic 4ths/5ths tuning of many Sticks is the amount of sonic overlap between the sides. When you get up into the higher frets, the bass strings kind of "catch up" to the melody strings and there is a lot of overlap. This lets you play a lot of things are are more like piano music in nature. Listen to any music by Bob Culbertson and you'll hear somebody who utilizes this aspect of the Stick really really well.

With that said ... you can take a split-tuned Stick and swap the strings around an play uncrossed. There are players who do this and are pretty happy with it so I have to warn that what follows is my opinion.

With that said ... I find just the opposite to be true when it comes to comfort. You don't really have to "reach" when you play crossed (unless your fingers are really tiny). In fact, almost the entirety of the fretboard lies in your hand and your fingers fall very naturally to the right place. If you're going to play uncrossed, you are kind of gripping toward the very edge of the instrument and there just isn't as much to hold onto there. The disadvantages of crossed playing would be that you lose sections of the fretboard because your other arm is in the way.

There are really no hard and fast rules though and you could end up jumping back and forth between them. Or play one side with both hands (a favorite for people like me who hold down the low end in a band).

Hi Pal,

This is one of those ares where opinions are strong as well. I'll base my answer on my experience as a teacher of the method, and as a player (and I promise it will be shorter than the last one )

1. Playing with your hands open, reaching over the board (what some people call crossed), lets you relax your hands and use your whole hand and arm when you play, not just your fingers. You don't have to bend your fingers all the time (which you basically do when playing "uncrossed")

2. Keeping your hands open gives you access to all the strings with each hand, whereas playing "uncrossed" segregates the hands to separate sides of the board. Emmett, Steve and Bob are all great at using this "whole instrument" approach. check out their videos and you'll see what I mean.

3. Open hands: There's a lot more freedom of movement in general, something that comes in handy when you want to do more than just frets notes. Remember, all of the energy to make the notes sound has to come from the individual hand.

4. Open hands: I also find the whole process more intimate and physically connected because the hands are closer together and more centered on my body.

5. The only advantage I've ever heard for playing uncrossed is that the hands don't run into each other. Given the range of the instrument, and all the other things one loses by "uncrossing" I don't find this to be a compelling argument. My hands never run into each other, and most of the uncrossed players I've seen hardly ever play low on the melody or high on the bass strings anyway, I think because it's not as comfortable.

As a teacher, the only problem I've seen people run into when they reach over comes from wanting to keep the fingers rigidly parallel to the frets (a guitar and bass habit). This isn't necessary or desirable. Letting the arm change angles at the shoulder opens up all kinds of possibilities for the left hand technique that aren't there if you worry about lining up with the frets.

Of course if you have an instrument with a really wide neck, you might be compelled to play "uncrossed." I think you would be missing out on a lot of the fun of Stick playing in that case, but that's just my opinion....

Hello Palamedes.

I am also a new player, having placed an order for my stick in January and then becoming so impatient that I bought a secondhand stick from one of the forum members here.

Past experience (30 years playing bass) tells me that if you have your heart set on a particular instrument, no other instrument will do - you will constantly be hankering after that one you didn't buy because it was too expensive/not available etc. Assuming that the cheaper instrument does not put you off the whole idea and you don't give up, you will then eventually have to buy the one you wanted in the first place.

I own numerous basses both boutique and mass produced and some of them are indeed works of art as well as superb musical instruments. So I was a little sceptical lets say, about the price of a Chapman Stick which is essentialy one piece of wood, a simple pickup, a visually quite crude truss rod and some strings and machine heads but the sound that many talented players can produce from it convinced me that it must be good.

Now I have my own stick, I can report that the true beauty and quality of the instrument comes from a combination of excellent, functional design simply and accurately executed. The whole is truly greater than the sum of its parts.

If you think you would prefer something a little closer to a standard electric guitar/bass, the NS Stick is a collaboration between Emmet Chapman and another of my musical instrument design gods, Ned Steinberger. You can be sure that the thinking behind that instrument's design will be razor sharp and function focussed.

Hope you find what you're looking for.

Ed

Oh, I forgot to mention that there are lots of us musician/computer programmers here on the forum. It seems like a good mix for the 21st century.

-EricTheGeek