Hard to decide whether equipment or Stick forum.
Playing thru headphones w/ a PODX3. Very outdated modeler, but.
So you dial in a "tone" that blasts like Valhalla and you KNOW it will not "sit in the mix" when you go to track it. Or play live with others. (not done either in quite a while) Listen to solo tracks of Chris Squire. Or any guitarist on 70's recordings. That "Big Sound" in the mix is just not the recorded sound on tape. (I said 70's).
So what do you do when you go to track it? Or if you WANT to record but you KNOW it's gonna be mud pie as soon as you overdub. Whether additional Stick, "guitar", drums, keys.
Dial in tones differently?
Just musings, boys&girls.
BTW new strings and grateful I have a PASV4 now that they're unobtainable.

ok, hold on friend because I think I may be causing you to re-think things here.

In 1993, I was playing electric bass in a Connecticut hardcore band called Official Hooligans.

For gigs, I was using a 1976 Ric 4001s through a Peavy Citation Mk IV guitar head with channel switching [the overdrive was beyond belief !!] into a Kustom 2x15 cab with that plush covering.

Pedal was a 1960s FuzzWah, with no name on it.

Later on I switched to a GK-RB 800 powering an Acoustic 4x10 on top of an Acoustic 1x15 [as in Acoustic Control Corp...]

When it came time to record our 7 inch, I showed up with a mid 1960s Ampeg AUB ?? electric bass - the one with the scroll headstock and f holes through the body, with a Gretsch Expander B amplifier [try and find one of those !!] with I think the same Kustom 2x15 cab.

The engineer came with a DI box and I wanted to kill him.

I explained that I came to this date with a particular rig which produced a particular sound and had I known I was going to be DI'd I would have just shown up with a piece of crap bass and low morals.

For me, amp sound is everything.
The sound coming out of your amp is based on everything you've brought, physically, spiritually, and mentally to the gig.

And who was a big believer in that ??

Chris Squire.

The record came out, it was well received - but that's not me playing bass on it, it's someone else who was not allowed to perform as they wanted to, for the sake of achieving a proper sound.

A couple of years later, I'm a hired gun in another hardcore band, this time NYHC's Adam-12... and we're recording in a studio in Brooklyn on Sackett Street.

I again show up with my 76 Ric 4001s, but this time with just an original yellow box MXR Distortion + because I knew Jim had great amps.

For most of the recording I played through a Hartke stack, and one song a GK RB400 through a Sonic 2x15, which by the way was by far the most powerful speaker cabinate I have ever played through, way more powerful than my 70 SVT, or my Acoustic 402s [??] the double 15 cabs that tilt back, anyhow I tell Jim I just want one mic on the cabs, and no DI and Jim goes, ok... I'll do my best but it might not be exactly as you are hearing it, to which I replied that's fine.

Two days of recording and we were done.

Mixdown time - I booked an extra hour ahead of everyone else.

I showed up, we opened up the studio to the outside world as there was a back door that overlooked the courtyards.... and I simply told Jim [we did this on 16 track 1/2 tape] that I wanted my bass to sound like Chris Squire's on the song Roundabout of the Fragile album.

Jim nodded a couple of times, he saw where I was coming from - and said ok, mind if I smoke a joint ??

By the time the rest of the band showed up my parts were 100% done and I spent the rest of the day sinking 40 oz bottles of Midnight Dragon Ale.

THAT record is something with completely got it right when capturing my sound and essence of being a bassist, and I am so proud of the engineer for listening to my wishes, and allowing me to achieve my vision.

Years later when I would put together my own studio [now shut down...] I refused DI boxes on anything, and also refused punching in, but would allow overdubs.

I'm still analog tapes # 1 fan, and still believe in live recording with no isolation when it comes to getting a bands essence preserved on tape.

Now I don't know if this answered your question, but I am hoping it helps guide you on the path you are looking to take.

Cheers.

PS: I think I'm going to see if it's possible that after all these years, like 30, if one of those Sonic 2x15 cabs is for sale, because again - I've never played through a bottom that could handle such power and dynamic range with such ease...

Thanks fer replying B.G.W. and the great story.
But C.S. isolated on Roundabout (or anything else on Fragile) sounds like an Electric Cheese Sandwich.
It's not that Earth moving thunder we Imaginate it to be.
It's thin. No low end. Very mid-y and tinny. Like cardboard with aluminium (British) foil.
Steve Howe's guitar sounds like cats scratching.
Those mixes are Earth Moving Thunder and Lord of The Devil guitar.
I know. It's analog tape and Eddie Kramer.
But today it's still the same. Stuff has to "sit in the mix" and occupy certain frequencies not saturate or obscure said frequencies.
And the Stick is a Devil to mix with other instruments.
I have played with drums, guitar, keys, in a live room and all the nuance goes out the window and I'm making adjustments to "my tone" with a shovel.
I'm using MANY analogies but I play my DBR 12-string that occupies A LOT of sonic space. Sometimes I wish I had a pickup design for the "center" 6 (or 8!) and pickups for the outside 3's (or 2's!). (OK, all the time)
I know one thing. For the most part, my PODX3 models are the board (desk) models, and the first time I used a "Classic Rock" vocal patch on my Stick and it sounded HUGE I remember the engineer, the first time in a studio, for me, saying, "You're going direct w/ the bass."
And I remember the results.
The bass sounded HUGE in the mix. Fretless P bass AND Ibanez 8-string.
Actually the Ibanez always sounded like a train no matter what. But that's another story.
Thanks for anyone who actually reads this...and mebe has something to say...useful or not!

That story is legend Big G. Preparation is the better part of performance - your story of sinking Midnight Dragon Ale is pure testimony. Amen.

The point about sonic space is not lost on me. Absolute truth. Unless you're playing an Alto or an SG12, The Stick is the absolute misfit in all of this. I have had HEAVY explaining to do at open mic nights - sometimes it is so much easier to do it on your own than to try to accommodate guitars and basses.

Finding out where it sits in the mix is a different game altogether - a big challenge for me too.

Thanks for popping in Gene! Misfit! Emmett will be laughing!
So on another tangent, now that I'm loving the new strings...the POD is misbehaving (it's in it's "hiccup" mode. Hasn't done that in awhile. Of course...)

Been awhile... Hopefully everyone's doing good? Oh good.

Find a sound that inspires you to play well. Start there. It's been my experience that really, it's just a few subtle tweaks from there to make it "sit" in the mix if "mixing" is what you are doing.
But honestly, from my grind with the Stick it was more about seeing/hearing the interaction with other instruments. And more often than not if it was a solo Stick thing and drums all would work out very well. But interaction with other instruments is a challenge and often "restraint" would equate to a fuller sounding recording or interaction with other players. You're a good player though, so you know all this.

A thought though - it's true, sometimes that just a single repeating note grooves harder and sound's bigger than 8 fingers and two thumbs. Do what works, if it sounds good it is. Stick seems to just ooze complexity, and that's the vocabulary it has - even for supposedly "easy" stuff. I learned that it doesn't have to be that way.

Plus, technology has come a very, very long way in the last while. IR's and modeling and all that good stuff make it very easy to get some very convincing tones...

Peace out, rock on.

Hey Scott!

"But today it's still the same. Stuff has to "sit in the mix" and occupy certain frequencies not saturate or obscure said frequencies."


You just explained better in one sentence the rational as to why I still own no less than 30 electric basses, and no less than a dozen amplification rigs, both tube and transistor.

You have to know what is going to work and cut through the mix so you will be properly heard, and at the same time sound proper.

This was my rational when I did those two very different sessions in two very different neighboring states.

Now, as for Chris Squire....

Some kids grow up whose dad's are into muscle cars, or motorcycles, or boats, or you name it....

I grew up in a household where nothing was of more importance than a proper sounding hi-fi system, and this was during the 1970s.

By the late 70s, early 80s for sure my father had converted over to a full blown tri amp system using Sansui AU-919s [I think, forgive me if I'm wrong on that...] which big custom made cabinates made from 2x4 frame construction, laminated wood panals, and the drivers were various combinations of 15s, 12's, horn drivers [with out the horn, just the drivers...] and dome tweeters.

It was sick !!

Since my dad was a classical music affectionado, yes... it had to sound perfect, and anything less than perfection was not an option.

I recall my first two record purchases made in the mid 70s - prior to this huge system which was constructed in the basement of our modest house in Bay Ridge Brooklyn - being Yes Close To The Edge, and Iggy and the Stooges Raw Power.

At the time my father had a real nice system in the living room with 4 full range cabs made by Criterion, an Onkyo receiver, and a very old Empire turntable with the massive brass platter - manual belt driven.

Close To The Edge went over very well, and Chris Squires bass sounded amazing, full range but at the same time it really cut through the mix nicely so you could hear every note, along with Bills drums, Ricks keys, Steve's guitars, and of course Jon's words.

Iggy on the other hand, I recall my dad saying he was not quite ready for that.

At the time I had a 1960s HH Scott Stereomaster amp and a pair of full range Lafayette cabs with 12s, mids, and tweeters.

I think my turntable was a Dual, from the 1960s as well [before I got an ADC..]

I always recall Chris Squires bass sounding very rich, like a grand piano... not thin or as you described - especially on Fragile, oh that record so changed my life !!

Now, most of the gear from my dads old tri amp set up migrated to my home over the years, and I split things up as I had no need for something that massive, but after getting a proper spectrum analyzer I come to find out that those cabinate designs [which were the result of lots of reading and glasses of Dinkel a'cker bier [in the 5 ltr keg] those cabs went down to 20 hz with no problem at all !!

Along with analog tape, I'm still the number one fan of 1970s hi-fi technology when indeed bigger was better.

It's kind of sad how today very few people really care about how music sounds, and are willing to make the investment into a real good proper hi-fi system.

That was one of the reasons I shut my studio down, I started to think wot for, wot's the point... nobody cares anymore anyway when it comes to how something sounds.

It's really sad I think.

I mean, when I was growing up - everybody had really slamming stereo systems, whether they were into rock or disco or whatever.

They may not have had anything else, but the focus was on any and all things revolving around music.

Today, it seems to be anything but.

sigh.......................

This commment makes me think of Victor Wooten's book "The Spirit of Music" (his follow up to "The Music Lesson"). I've seen it described as "an inspiring parable of the importance of music and the threats that it faces in today's world"

I think that anyone who read "The Music Lesson" but didn't get on with, finding it too "woo woo", is probably not going to want to bother with "The Spirit of Music", as if anything it's goes even deeper & gets even weirder. I enjoyed both.

BGW: I'm talking about the "isolated track" thingy on YouTube? of Chris's bass. It's all there, but it doesn't "bloom" until it's in the mix. See if you can find it to see what I'm talking about. Shocking!
BTW I've got a couple of C.S. tones dialed in on my POD and they cut thru, but are not "massive". I have has yet to record them and see how they blend. I think those (and the John Wetton tones w/ pushed HiWatt) might actually work.