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 Boss GT-x 
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Post Re: Boss GT-x
robmartino wrote:
I've always used 1 MOhm input impedance inputs for the Stick whether it be preamps or effects. Not deliberately, but that just seems to be the typical value for these things. I've never closely A/Bed the difference between preamps with 1 and 2.2 MOhm input impedances and would suspect the difference is on the subtle side, given that the 2.2 M impedance would be a bit more appropriate for a full range passive pickup.

When Greg stopped by a couple times and I tried out the StepABout with the PASV-4 pickups, it sounded great. Afterwards I went back and was able to improve the sound of my effects by starting with a dry tone and playing with input level knobs and switches to get closer to what I was hearing with the Stepabout.

The difference usual shows up in recording and full-range amplifier applications. If there's no tweeter involved (as on most guitar amps) or if you're run through speaker simulators that pretend to have no tweeters, that's when you'll hear the difference the most.

A lot of the articulation of tapping happens "up high." If your system is filtering it out, you may not get the amount of attack you would normally expect from a guitar or bass that's picked. That may not be an aspect of the sound that's important to you, but if it is, then input impedance is definitely something to note.

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Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:00 am
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Post Re: Boss GT-x
I have A/B tested 1 MOhm vs. 3 MOhm and for me the difference is not subtle. I much prefer 3 and I suspect that 2.2 would be very close to 3 in sound. The difference is not just in the highs, the lows are improved, too. For me the StepABout seems like the ideal Stick starting point. However, I'm still saving for my 12-string and the StepABout will be a ways after that. For now I'm making due with DIY preamps and buffers made from circuits I find on the web.

-Eric

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Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:03 am
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Post Re: Boss GT-x
digitalkettle wrote:
robmartino wrote:
I've never closely A/Bed the difference between preamps with 1 and 2.2 MOhm input impedances and would suspect the difference is on the subtle side...


Agreed Rob...you have to start using phrases like 'singing highs', 'lively mids' and 'warm lows' ;-)


I'm most concerned about those salty upper-mids and chewy low end growl!

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Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:04 am
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Post Re: Boss GT-x
EricTheGray wrote:
I have A/B tested 1 MOhm vs. 3 MOhm and for me the difference is not subtle. I much prefer 3 and I suspect that 2.2 would be very close to 3 in sound. The difference is not just in the highs, the lows are improved, too. For me the StepABout seems like the ideal Stick starting point. However, I'm still saving for my 12-string and the StepABout will be a ways after that. For now I'm making due with DIY preamps and buffers made from circuits I find on the web.


Hi Eric, I''m curious which specific devices you tried here, since I'd like to learn as much about this as I can.

One issue of concern is using a standalone preamp with guitar effects that only accept high impedance inputs... I've had noise issues in that regard (low impedance preamp output going to high impedance guitar effects input)... it seems better to use effects boxes that accept line level signals in that case. My Boss GX-700s have been progressively crapping out on me so I'm trying to decide what effects direction I want to go before deciding whether a high-quality preamp is necessary (the VG-99s have 2.2 MOhm input impedances, which might make a StepAbout redundant).

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Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:12 am
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Post Re: Boss GT-x
robmartino wrote:

Hi Eric, I''m curious which specific devices you tried here, since I'd like to learn as much about this as I can.

One issue of concern is using a standalone preamp with guitar effects that only accept high impedance inputs... I've had noise issues in that regard (low impedance preamp output going to high impedance guitar effects input)... it seems better to use effects boxes that accept line level signals in that case. My Boss GX-700s have been progressively crapping out on me so I'm trying to decide what effects direction I want to go before deciding whether a high-quality preamp is necessary (the VG-99s have 2.2 MOhm input impedances, which might make a StepAbout redundant).


Hi Rob,

Not trying to answer for Eric, and I hope he will, but pre-amping is only partly about matching impedances. The dynamic quality of the circuit is also very important. The StepAbout has a fast response time so it preserves your dynamics better than most transistor preamps would.

This is, of course, the reason for it's "shimmering highs" "throaty mids" and "gut-punching lows" :)

Anyway, glad to see input impedances on the rise. I think this is a reflection of the fact that these units are being less and less run into amps and more and more into computers for recording.

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Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:24 am
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Post Re: Boss GT-x
I was always a huge fan of the Boss GT-x units. I used to run with dualing GT-3s and later used a GT-6 for a short while. I switched over to VF-1s just because, for my particular setup, it was much easier to have everything racked. There was a trade off though as the GT units provided much finer control over individual effects and provide some extras you just couldn't get from the VF-1 or SE-70. Plus I always thought they just sounded great.

Glenn

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Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:14 pm
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Post Re: Boss GT-x
Hi Greg;

I assume when you mentioned "fast response" you're talking about Slew rate which is the amout of delay a given circuit or device will add to your signal. "Dynamics" have more to do with the headroom of the device (component) and the power supply that's running it. Generally speaking, pre-amps that use op-amps have a much poorer slew rate performance than pre-amps that use a discrete transistor design. The fewer components used in the signal path, the better. Op-amps contain VERY MANY transistors.

I actually prefer tubes (valves) in pre-amp designs and I'm currently working on a tube stereo instrument pre-amp that I plan on marketing in the future.

Regarding input impedance, in a blindfold test, I doubt anyone could tell the difference in sound between a 1 megohm and a 2 or 3 megohm input impedance. Input impedance is a trade-off, as Rob mentioned, as your input impedance rises, noise starts to become an issue, so while you may be squeezing that tiny bit of very high frequency response out of your input circuit, you are at the same time adding noise.

Just some food for thought. :mrgreen:

greg wrote:
The dynamic quality of the circuit is also very important. The StepAbout has a fast response time so it preserves your dynamics better than most transistor preamps would.

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Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:32 pm
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Post Re: Boss GT-x
glennfin wrote:
Hi Greg;

I assume when you mentioned "fast response" you're talking about Slew rate which is the amout of delay a given circuit or device will add to your signal. "Dynamics" have more to do with the headroom of the device (component) and the power supply that's running it. Generally speaking, pre-amps that use op-amps have a much poorer slew rate performance than pre-amps that use a discrete transistor design. The fewer components used in the signal path, the better. Op-amps contain VERY MANY transistors.

I actually prefer tubes (valves) in pre-amp designs and I'm currently working on a tube stereo instrument pre-amp that I plan on marketing in the future.

Regarding input impedance, in a blindfold test, I doubt anyone could tell the difference in sound between a 1 megohm and a 2 or 3 megohm input impedance. Input impedance is a trade-off, as Rob mentioned, as your input impedance rises, noise starts to become an issue, so while you may be squeezing that tiny bit of very high frequency response out of your input circuit, you are at the same time adding introducing noise.

Just some food for thought. :mrgreen:

Hi Glenn,

Yes, the slew rate is higher on the StepAbout than conventional op-amps. The sound compared favorably to several tube preamps I tried. I wouldn't have gone to so much trouble to have this thing made if it were easy to get that sound with extant products.

Because the BassXX preamp is a filter and not a "volume booster" it is very quiet (the eq can be totally bypassed for passive function). I wish I knew more about the electronics involved.

Good luck with your preamp. I'll be curious to check it out when you're done. The more two-channel processors out there the better.

Perhaps a separate thread about the unit is in order, I'm feeling like a bit of a hijacker.... ;)

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Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:53 pm
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Post Re: Boss GT-x
Absolutely!... I promise to get you one of the prototypes when they are completed. Yes, a new thread in the future... 8-)

...... oh yea, I own a GT-8 and a GT-pro... use them both with my stick, very happy with them.

greg wrote:
Good luck with your preamp. I'll be curious to check it out when you're done. The more two-channel processors out there the better.

Perhaps a separate thread about the unit is in order, I'm feeling like a bit of a hijacker.... ;)

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Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:35 am
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Post Re: Boss GT-x
Oooo, I've been paged!

Greg is quite right that impedance is only part of the picture. I am still early in my experiments but it is clear that some form of preamp is needed by the Stick. I have tried going straight into a low-impedance mixer to start. Everyone should hear just how bad this makes a Stick sound! I then started going through some Boss pedals and a rolls mixer with an instrument input. Then I made my preamp which uses a single JFET for each channel. I have not experimented with opamps, their reputation among the DIY stompbox makers is very low. My preamp sounds wonderful to me and I'm really enjoying it. Next, I'm trying to add an active mono out to it and variable input impedance to see how sound is affected.

-Eric

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Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:45 am
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