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 Straight Eighths vs. Two-Handed Bass 
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Post Straight Eighths vs. Two-Handed Bass
Hey Folks,

I've run into something that strikes me as technically stale, so I wanted to pick your brains and see what we can discover. I'll start with some background, and, I hope, slowly integrate my sonic conundrum. (I will put a TL/DR version as a post script)

As many of you may have guessed, I come from the bass guitar world. Consequently, I REALLY like working with the bass side when tapping. However, I'm finding that when I'm "pumping eighths," as it were, the sound that I'm getting from any of my tapping instruments (Stick, Warr, Bass Guitar) simply loses power. It feels that I should simply stick with the bass guitar when following such a pattern! (see the attached "Straight Eighths" example to see what I mean)

Attachment:
Straight Eighths.png


The part that feels stale is quite simple: I'm only using one hand to generate a steady stream of eighth notes (alternating index/middle finger on the tap). Perhaps my dexterity needs some work. I'm just not feeling this technique by itself. Slower tempi (80-100 BPM) give me a decent drive and a solid sound, but once I get above that, I feel like maybe tapping is not the best technique for the sound I need! For example, my intonation starts to suffer once I hit this threshold!

I think it might be a matter of preference, but when I employ a two-handed bass technique, I suddenly feel like the driving eighths have power again! (see the attached "Octave" example)

Attachment:
Octaves.png


When hitting octaves, I'm driving my riff with two hands, and it pushes me forward with a wonderful sense of abandon. 140, 150, 160 BPM - they are all within my reach.

Anyway, now that my stream of consciousness background is on the table (forgive me - it is after midnight as I craft these words), I wanted to put forward a couple questions:

(a) What are some of your experiences when pumping out a steady stream of eighth notes with one hand? Does your intonation suffer as well? (I'm trying to see if this is a common problem)

(b) Is this "pumping eighths" conundrum a limitation of technique? I'm not past admitting that I am a pretty lame tapper sometimes, but I have a good sense that I'm doing everything the way I need to...

(c) What about two-handed bass? What, in your experience, makes this technique for occupying the bottom superior or inferior?

I hope this generates some discussion at the very least. I've seen a lot of things, tried a lot of techniques, and I'm definitely in a better place from it all. Still, it never hurts to hear what the world has to say.

Best,
~Nick "Klaus" G.

POST SCRIPT (TL/DR Version):

Pumping out straight eighth notes is a common bass guitar technique, but seems to fall short when tapping. On the other hand, two-handed bass can really drive the bottom end. What are your thoughts?


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Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:10 pm
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Post Re: Straight Eighths vs. Two-Handed Bass
This is something dear to my heart as a tapping musician. That's why the very first hing in The Stick Book, Volume 1 are exercises that involve repeated notes.

Rock music in particular, but also jazz, folk, traditional and classical musics all rely on repeated notes to varying degrees. So its important that we develop techniques early on that makes this as natural as any other movement, like scale movement that so many Stickists seem to find more naturally.

The only way to make it sound good is to use hand movement. Without watching you play, I can't say what your specific issue is, but there's no reason why you should have a less satisfying experience as a player tapping with one hand instead of two.

Two-handed bass is a BLAST. We owe so much to Tony for bringing this mode to us, but there is not reason to give up on one hand playing driving bass lines.

If you have the Stick Book, check out the last page of Chapter 3, which is an 8th note exercise that involves a lot of repeated notes, but in the context of a bass line that moves around. Also, the Basic Free Hand Technique DVD shows the hand movement concept quite clearly and develops it from the bottom up.

But for starters, you should watch this video which I made before I made the DVD, at around 6:00 is shows the basic movement in the left hand (don't be thrown off by the thumbnal saying it's about melody movement, the video covers both):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNNUHKZWLw[/youtube]

I can't say it any more emphatically than I already have. The answer to your issue is to use hand movement as the foundation for your technique. It will solve all the issues you are having.

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Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:10 am
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Post Re: Straight Eighths vs. Two-Handed Bass
Wow Greg.
Really good video..

Where can I get it for purchase/download ?

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Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:15 am
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Post Re: Straight Eighths vs. Two-Handed Bass
What Greg said!

-Eric

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Post Re: Straight Eighths vs. Two-Handed Bass
I will go one step further than Greg did (how rare!). With two hands, you may achieve greater speed, but with one hand you will always have more control and consistency. As long as you can get the speed you need with one hand, you will like the rhythm and attack better than with two hands.

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Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:00 am
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Post Re: Straight Eighths vs. Two-Handed Bass
Coupled with the hand/arm movement, you could try three fingers in a Ring-Middle-Index-Middle (repeat) pattern. The driving 8th note pattern is something I try work on every time I play.

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Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:03 am
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Post Re: Straight Eighths vs. Two-Handed Bass
k.graz wrote:
Pumping out straight eighth notes is a common bass guitar technique, but seems to fall short when tapping. On the other hand, two-handed bass can really drive the bottom end. What are your thoughts?

Keep in mind that I'm not a bass player, and I don't consider myself a terribly proficient Stickist (yet!). Having said that, I've found that the technique Greg describes for repeated notes works really well, and a Stick can really drive things with it, especially given the strength of a tapped note's attack. Not to mention that it's fun, and looks really neat, too. 8-)

As with anything involving musical performance, though, there are subtleties that separate adequate/good/excellent. I'll be a little vulnerable and share a couple of things that I've found I need to consistently work on. They're sorta related.

I sometimes find my hand taking on a sort of "pendulum rhythm", back and forth steadily instead of staying in position closer to the full note duration, and it moves things toward a staccato feel. Sometimes that's what the song needs, but other times not so. I need to occasionally devote practice time to keep from slipping in this direction. If I _really_ want a smooth legato feel, I find I have to move my hand in more of a rocking motion than a sliding motion, which takes even more effort and attention to achieve (at least for me).

Another challenge I have, specifically on the thickest bass string, concerns playing "clean" fast repeated eighth notes to a softer dynamic. I find that the softer I want to play, the easier it is to get a subtle rattle between the notes. One solution I sometime use to get that soft-yet-fast dynamic on that string is to play repeated eighth notes with my right hand. All by itself that helps, and if I need more help, at the same time I'll rest part of my left hand on the string a couple of frets back to simultaneously lower it a bit and to increase muting/damping. Then when the song's intensity increases I'll switch back to the left hand. (This is not as much of an issue for me on the rest of the bass strings, likely due to their higher tension.)

Oh, and yeah, Andy, using three fingers is something I've also worked on. I seem to be able to play repeated notes faster with three, though only for short stretches before the smoothness takes a dive. Working on it, though.

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Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:30 am
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Post Re: Straight Eighths vs. Two-Handed Bass
Boaz wrote:
Wow Greg.
Really good video..

Where can I get it for purchase/download ?
Thanks Boaz.

It's not downloadable, but will be on YouTube for the forseeable future.

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Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:55 am
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Post Re: Straight Eighths vs. Two-Handed Bass
Hey All,

These are some really great replies! Greg, I definitely remember talking to you about hand movement to drive the rhythm, and that has been valuable advice (beyond valuable, to be honest). It was, in fact, sort of the exigency of this discussion. It is worth noting that when I am working on my octave exercise, I am definitely using hand movement to facilitate the driving notes. The pattern is essentially:

Root (Index LH) - Octave (Index RH) - Root (Middle LH) - Octave (Middle RH).

With regard to using a three-digit approach - this was so..mething that has been crossing my mind quite a bit. I read an interview with Alex Webster from Cannibal Corpse, who noted that his bass guitar technique uses an Index - Middle - Ring pattern. Likewise, he noted that other players use a sort of rotating approach (Middle - Index - Middle - Ring, etc.) to pluck notes. However, I'm still trying to simply get my Index and Middle work, so I think I'll hold off on the Ring until later.

Best,
~Nick

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Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:04 pm
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Post Re: Straight Eighths vs. Two-Handed Bass
k.graz wrote:
Hey All,


With regard to using a three-digit approach - this was so..mething that has been crossing my mind quite a bit. I read an interview with Alex Webster from Cannibal Corpse, who noted that his bass guitar technique uses an Index - Middle - Ring pattern. Likewise, he noted that other players use a sort of rotating approach (Middle - Index - Middle - Ring, etc.) to pluck notes. However, I'm still trying to simply get my Index and Middle work, so I think I'll hold off on the Ring until later.


When I played bass more regularly, I studied Billy Sheehan's right hand technique pretty closely, and he uses a ring-middle-index (outside to inside) pattern and repeats it, I followed suit and learned this way. You can get very articulate fast passages after some practice. The issue to overcome with non-repeating 3-finger patterns is the tendency to emphasize the first stroke of the pattern, and since 4/4 is the "common" time the emphasis becomes goofy. So the emphasis must be trained to land on the next finger in the sequence.

But the Stick isn't bass guitar, and you can use your whole arm more when tapping, so I threw out the non-repeating-middle-finger-pattern, simply because it allows the arm to move up in down in a fluid back and forth motion instead of having to jump back to the starting position after every pattern. I do still start patterns most comfortably with the ring finger

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