Hello dear tappers,

Unfortunately, I can't get a hold of a stick yet, and can definitely not afford to order a custom tuning just to find out that what I'm dreaming about doesn't work. So I'd be happy if you could experiment a little on your instruments and answer some of my questions.

1. From what I've seen on youtube videos, it seems that it's completely possible to play the stick using all 10 fingers. In practice the thumb seems to be used only for special effects (bass melody on outer string, harmonics, slapping, etc.) and only one thumb at a time. Does the instrument require thumb support? If it does, does it apply also to seated playing and/or an instrument stand?

2. On strings tuned in 5ths, would fingerings adapted from the cello work? For example for the two octave major scale (1 is THUMB):
1-2-4-5 / 1-2-4-5 / 1-2-3-5 / 1-2-3

3. Would keyboard-like thumb-under technique work? Would it work for whole tones or just for semitones? For example the Minor scale on one string:
1-2 (thumb under) 1-2-4 (thumb under) 1-2-4

4. On strings tuned in 5ths, how comfortable would it be to play a melody in octaves using two adjacent strings and fingers 1,4? How about fingers 1,5? How about adding a 3rd and a 7th to that chord with fingers 2,3?

5. In your opinion, if I play with both hands consistently above the instrument in a piano like hand position, would a so called "uncrossed" string arrangement make more sense?

As you might have guessed, I'm not a guitar player, and am thinking about adapting techniques from the cello and keyboard using a custom tuning of mirrored, "uncrossed" 5ths, from the left to the right:
Bass
1. D3
2. G2
3. C2
4. F1
5. Bb0

Melody
6. Bb1
7. F2
8. C3
9. G3
10. D4

Outside of losing closely spaced chords in the melody side, what other disadvantages do you think this tuning/technique would have? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Bob Culbertson uses all 10 fingers, tho not as a regular part of his playing as your post seems to suggest. So it can in fact be done. Not a skill I have mastered however.

10 on 12. Poor Wes only had 4 on 6. I talked to Bob Culbertson about this last summer. He used to use all 10 fingers a lot. He doesn't do that as much these days because it was too hard on his hands. For a musician to play for as long as he has, they have to take care of their body. Bob does a lot to maintain his ability to keep playing. He changes positions, he is conscious of his hand positions, and if something makes him hurt he stops doing it. Greg plays an awful lot of music primarily using 6 fingers. Steve Adelson uses 9 routinely. Django used 2 and music happened.

-Eric

You can play with all ten fingers if you use your left shoulder to support the instrument. If not, the Stick is going to sway too much for a decent tapping precision.

Hey qwair - interesting questions. Would be good to get a cellist's perspective on the Stick. We have a few already, always room for more cello.

1. One can play the Stick with 10 fingers. As you noted, the preferred placement of the thumb is behind the neck to support four fingers on the fretboard. Having a light touch is a good start for this type of technique. You can have all 10 fingers on the fretboard, like you do with a piano, but it is altogether a different experience given the tuning, the spacing of the strings and where the hands are positioned. The crossed-over position is more widespread and adopted. There may be differing opinions on how standing or sitting affects this style of play, in so long as one is able to use the left shoulder to support the back of the instrument, 10 fingers on the fretboard is possible.

2. The touch and feel of the cello is altogether different from the Stick. Using the first finger in the place of the thumb for the scales you mentioned would feel a lot more natural. There is more expression using the pinky of the right hand (Matt Tate, Emmett, Steve), but there are many that swear by the 3-finger technique in the right hand, myself included as I lack the differentiation in the right to effectively use my pinky.

3. While I am not quite certain I understand your one string minor scale question, I would fall back on my previous statement that the first finger in the left hand is more suited to deliver an accurate and quality tone, especially in the lower registers.

4. Playing octaves in adjacent strings is uncommon. Playing them on the 6th and 8th string or the 7th and 8th string is quite common. Adding a 3rd and 7th while fretting the root note with the first finger is arguably the most common and characteristic voicing of the Stick. This can be used in any varietal of major or minor 3rd or 7th, making jazz changes, with 9, +9, +5, 6 or +6 (11ths for 12-string players) i the right hand (which is probably a component of the melody anyway ) easy to deliver.

5. Emmett made the instrument so he could play music the way he wanted to - so only you could answer that question. This instrument is really in it's infancy, so many players of all levels of skill will have a different approach to the instrument (and swear by it).

6. Generally Stickists start their string number from the highest register in the melody hand (right)(closest to the floor) to highest string on the bass side (left). This would be similar to you starting your string count from A-D-G-C (1-2-3-4). I use a similar pattern in my tuning except that I start at C# as my lowest unfretted note in the bass and melody side, commonly referred (by me anyway) to as Baritone Tuning.

Hopefully you can try out a Stick and get a feel for it. Depending on where you are in the world, you might be closer than you think to a Stickist that would probably more than willing to meet you halfway for a cup of coffee or a beer (or a debate on health care reform) so that you could check out the Stick for yourself.

Enjoying hearing others opinions on the matter and looking forward to more

I like to view the Stick in several different ways…
1. Like a saxophone player and how they finger and phrase
2. Like a piano player…. same thing, and also playing big extended chords and arpeggios
3. Two handed bass… Looking at playing different configurations of the notes.

Boris' recent post made me reconsider stick with ten fingers. Very cool.

Some people are just meant for that and perhaps some aren't.

Hi Q.

Gene has made some interesting points, and really answered your questions.

But if I may,
you're at the stage where you're imagining all the things you'll be able to do on the Stick.
Until you actually try one there is no real frame of reference.

I went on a flight of fancy before I got mine in '82.
All my expectations changed for the better when it finally arrived.

Put it simply
.....you wouldn't learn to drive a car by theory only,
......or comparing it to a push-bike,
you'd want to get behind the wheel and drive!!

So its sensible to start off with a Standard Stick with Standard tuning, using standard technique.
All tunings and playing techniques have been the result a practical application.

The lack of low melody strings lead to Baritone tuning which later became the Grand Stick.
MR tuning was a simple way to give more room between hands.
RH thumb "finger-sticking" on the outer bass strings came from the simple realisation by Emmett that, thats where the thumb naturally rests, so use it!

I started a long time ago, so I'm fairly "classic" in my approach.
I even play simple bass root/5th/octave
using Emmett's original fingering and not "modern" fingering!!
(thats 2-3-1 and not 3-2-1 for those in the know!)

But I have tried the things you've suggested....
I think (at some point) we all have...
.....Most dont work...
All the things that do work are currently being utilised by all the Stickist on this site!!
Thats the best indication of whats possible!

So I would suggest,
go find a Stick (with player attached!!) and spend several hours being "wowed"
You could call Greg for a Skype lesson...
even though you're a little Teflon(!!) at the moment,
Greg can take you through the whole process in a very immediate and personal way.
It'll be worth it!!

The Stick is still in many ways a true tabula rasa. And your ideas may lead to some of the most amazing things to happen on the instrument ever, none of us can say.

Lots of good points about the physical relationship of the hands to the board have been made already, and having your thumb behind the board provides a great physical reference point for the rest of your hand, as well as, in my opinion, a better tone as the contact with the board is more "solid" (more about that below).

As far as the number of fingers you use is concerned, I would break it down this way.

Melodies, counter-melodies and bass lines are all made up of four basic elements, all equally important:

1. scale tone movement.
2. intervalic movement (broader steps)
3. chromatic movement (closer steps)
4. repeated notes

If you have a basic technique strategy that makes all of these not only possible but equally facile then you have a flexible technique strategy, one that will allow you to play what you want to play, without having to "rethink" every new situation..

My experience with 3 fingered melody is exactly that. Because the three fingers are more or less equals, they are interchangeable with each other within a scale position, allowing for easy adaptation of fingerings that don't "fit" the scale (repeated notes, 4ths 7ths, etc.), and also allowing for easy transitions from one position to the next, as outlined in the "Melody Movement" section of my DVD.

This three fingered flexibility works really well for all 4 of these elements, and allows you to integrate them with each other seamlessly. I've developed much instructional material that supports this unified melodic approach, and a body of performed, arranged and recorded work in many different styles that bears it out. I have yet to find a melody that I could not play with three fingers.

As Eric pointed out, my left hand "melodic" approach is also essentially a three-finger approach, mostly with the 3rd finger but occasionally the 4th finger sharing duties, depending on the stretch required, or if chords are integrated into the part.

You might ask yourself "how can this be better, or even logical, to NOT use one of your fingers very much?"

The answer is that we have to activate the notes while we select them, so the most consistent physical approach to note activation leads to strong timing, groove and independence. Three fingers involves all three of our strongest fingers, balanced across the hand, all the time, with no variation from string to string within the common diatonic framework. That is why it works for me. Other approaches do not involve the 3rd finger very much, but involve the 4th on every string, and almost always in sequence with the 3rd. Since they share a common tendon and the pinky is so much smaller and weaker, that just never felt very powerful to me, but again, that's just my experience. There are excellent players who use 4 fingers, as we all know, I'm just giving my reason behind leaving something out.

3 fingers might not seem like the best fit for everyone, and students who come from a guitar or bass background can have a hard time with it initially, but those who dig in and stick with it are getting excellent results in progressive rock, pop, classical, jazz, Latin, and other styles.

As far as the thumb goes, you get a better fundamental tone if you support the fingers with the thumb. It doesn't have to be "anchored", behind the board to accomplish this, but the grabbing motion of the hand is a lot more solid then the "pressing" motion when the thumb is not involved. Notes tapped with the support of the hand have a stronger fundamental frequency and less "buzziness."

Again, just my opinions, YMMV. Do what you want, but take charge of the instrument, don't let it take charge of you.

Hi Q
See what I mean!!
All that info from Greg!!
Brill!!