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 "Stick Piano" model...? 
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
Sharps and flats are a creation of piano and its keyboard predecessors, and was transferred to written notation, accidentals and all. There are no sharps and flats in the physics of music, except as relates to particular musical instruments.

By personal preference, I'm oblivious to key center, except to know when (and how far) my harmony is moving "sharpward", raising selected notes relative to a transitory scale and its chordal constructs, or in the flat direction, lowering other selected notes.

A fretboard is not simply a row of single note generators but has two dimensions, allowing choices of fingering locations for any given note, thus enabling tonal orchestration and varied expression - an argument for tablature, I would think.

It's true, I'm not happy with written notation. Never used it, except a few times for the copyright office and only because I had to, and also for the songs at the back of my "Free Hands" book from the mid '70s.

I do visualize music, however: http://www.stick.com/articles/parallel/

As for academia, I've found most music department professors to be standoffish, even territorial, and seemingly lacking in normal curiosity about a stringed instrument that has the capacity to generate new music, even new music theory. Priorities are priorities. I'd say, Monk, you've got a "hard row to hoe" breaking into the college circuit, but I wish you well because your success would of course be a credit to my instrument as well as to your musical investment in time and talent.

It's evident to me that your goal with The Stick is to teach and to help establish the instrument and its Free Hands tapping method, integrating it with musical history. I only encourage you in this regard except to say that many "faculties" of mind can be applied to musicianship. I offer myself as the unusual example.


Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:00 am
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
mad_monk wrote:
The idea is not to imitate the piano, but to learn from it. Training in the basic principles of music--like counterpoint, voice-leading, and modulation--is done at the piano because the guitar can't handle simultaneous lines very well. The Stick can, but not so long as students avoid using the grand staff.
Well put! Those aspects in music is exactly what draws me to the Stick. To me the Stick has always been more associated with the Piano than with the Guitar, although guitar was my first instrument and stayed my premier for a long time. As a guitarrist I felt frustrated by the difficulty in playing "in a piano style" (which you just defined so well).

But I don't understand how a particular tuning or STick model would make it easier to play "piano music" from a score. Isn't it just to (1) memorize where notes are on your instrument, (2) read the score to find when in time to play notes and (3) do it? Are you meaning that certain melodic runs and intervals in "piano music" are naturally easy to play on a piano but may be difficult on a Stick because of how the hands has to be moved? Is that what this is about?

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Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:30 am
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
I wrote this post yesterday, but Emmett beat me to the punch on many of the issues raised. Still maybe there are some differences, so here it is.

sagehalo wrote:
Well, Greg came from piano and likes Classical tuning. I also come from piano (and bass guitar) and would just like it if more material were not in guitar shape format. Since I play bass LH, I have to invert most horizontal drawings for a basically vertical instrument. In my beginner's opinion, the different tunings distinctly impact what types of lines and chords are routine vs. challenging and rare. As a different instrument, it does not have to mimic another instruments, especially one we can already play.

Nice thoughts though. As an insect of recent origin (new-bee) I appreciate the philosophies.
I like this topic, and I think it leads to some interesting ideas.

I was not classically trained, so how valuable my input may be can only come from my experience in learning the piano pieces I've learned and helping come students figure out others.

The biggest problem with exploring Western musical conventions on a fretboard instrument is probably the identification of the 12-notes system itself. The keyboard is used as the standard reference for its counterpoint capability, and also because it clearly indicates, through the use of black and white keys, the naming conventions of sharp, flat and natural notes. There are exceptions to this, as BSharp might be the first to note, but generally speaking we read and write with the key defined by one and only one representation of each note letter on the staff at a time (talking about the key signature here).

So as we read the staff, we can clearly see which notes are white keys, and which are black. What we can't see as easily on a keyboard is the pattern of intervals in absolute terms. This is easier to see on a fretboard instrument with a neutral tuning like The Sticks., where the geometry of musical intervals is quite clear.

So what I get from Randy's original query and suggestion, is that The Stick could be a vehicle for learning what people have traditionally learned about composition, harmony and counterpoint through the keyboard, if we can identify an optimal tuning for that purpose.

I have to agree with him that mirrored 4ths is potentially the most advantageous, as it represents a happy medium between the range of the instrument and the efficiency of the hand across the strings. A tuning that compacted the scale onto more strings (minor 3rds, for example) would enhance chromaticism, at the expense of range, whereas 5ths would expand range at the expense of chromaticism.

I like the relative equality of motion in mirrored 4ths (though there is a real difference in fret spans, something pianists don't have to face, even though they have different tactile issues of their own from black and white keys).

Generally speaking, though I absolutely love the Classic tuning (with a high bass 4th). Linear motion in the left hand is not as easy as it would be in 4ths, but the expansion of the range makes the instrument more versatile overall, and that is a big plus if you are interested in pursuing a broad variety of music. I also like the different vocabulary that accompaniment 5ths brings.

In recording the Mozart piece (admittedly a simple one, but I have a lot of things to do) I wanted to show that movement in the left hand is not a problem, even though the tuning is different. The shorter scale might make a difference to some, though I can play the piece just as easily on my Grand Stick in a slightly lower key, with wider fret spacing. The only real difficulty in adapting music from the keyboard that arises is chord voicings. Other than that, I see the tuning as a tabula rasa, open to us to interpret and adapt as we see fit.

Randy, if you want to open this door, I suggest you do so. Put your ideas into a cogent and cohesive form, with examples, and make your case. You have an instrument with an adequate tuning at your disposal.

It's hard to "get people" to learn a new language, but if they like the sound of what they are hearing, then, they will want to join. What exact tuning and string configuration are you proposing?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvYYVCBn1Lk[/youtube]

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Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:31 am
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
There are a lot of great comments in this thread. I'll try to throw my two cents into it. I started off when I was a kid with classical music training on the piano. When I was about 10 I "discovered" jazz and immediately knew that's what I wanted to play. Except, because of my musical environment there wasn't anyone I could learn from. And I was already so locked into playing set pieces on the piano that I couldn't make the shift myself. I finally did a few years later but my first 10 years of rigid classical training was really hard to break away from.

So, even now, as I'm just starting to learn the Stick I'm finding that the part of my brain that is still locked into piano format is really getting in the way. Someone commented about the reversed left hand problem. That's an interesting one. I've found that sometimes I actually move my hand the wrong direction when I'm playing. In other words, moving toward the bridge when I'm trying to play a lower note. There are certainly other things as well.

Certainly there are some advantages in having played piano. Hand independence is one of them (although that seems to have disappeared for the time being.) But for the most part I don't think it's any better to come to the Stick with keyboard training than any other instrument. I'm finding that the more I can put aside thinking in keyboard terms the better I learn.

Also, just a note about being able to read music. Yes, I think it's an advantage under certain circumstances. If you want to be any kind of studio musician then you better know how to read and be able to sight read anything. And, let's face it, that's the language that's out there. It's a lot easier to learn a composed piece by reading it than listening and trying to figure it out note by note. In the Western classical world though, the written note has become the main goal of the performer in a lot of cases. In other words, the most important thing in a performance is to get through a piece without making a mistake. To me, that goes against everything music is supposed to be. And most of us who had classical training have the fear of playing wrong notes branded into us.

So, ultimately, I think you have to approach the Stick (and any other instrument) with as much innocence as you can rather than trying to force it into the world you're familiar with. Easier said than done, of course.


Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:39 am
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
One of the neat/bizarre things about stick vs. piano is that coming up with new tunings on the stick may be akin to laying out the keyboard with a different set of black keys. It is much easier to re-tune than re-key a keyboard. This ease of tuning makes the stick a creature in flux as opposed to a stable, and consequently linearly developed, instrument. With each tuning, different things are easy and different things are hard.

From a piano standpoint, the development of standard LH accompaniment with RH melody, standard chord shapes and whatnot have helped make a foundation to improve off of. Additionally, having one way of communicating written forms of that music have also helped in the teaching of it. I challenge anyone to find a better way of communicating piano music in written form than the Grand Staff.

With the Stick, certainly music *could* be written in Grand Staff form, but the meaning is lost as to where to play. Here, Greg's book uses a semi-cumbersome form that adds that information back in. I mentioned previously that the chord diagrams confuse me as a LH bassist to Stick player. Tablature seems to work best for my mind, even though it loses some of the beauty of the Grand Staff.

I hope that the Stick continues in two directions:
1) The stability of Classic tuning to promote development into the structured instrument the piano is - with the fullness of music theory as a two-handed "free-hands" instrument
2) The creativity across different tunings to prevent stagnation of an instrument that has the flexibility to continue allowing this level of freedom and creation.

Digest as you will,
Daniel

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Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:14 am
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
sagehalo wrote:
With the Stick, certainly music *could* be written in Grand Staff form, but the meaning is lost as to where to play. Here, Greg's book uses a semi-cumbersome form that adds that information back in. I mentioned previously that the chord diagrams confuse me as a LH bassist to Stick player. Tablature seems to work best for my mind, even though it loses some of the beauty of the Grand Staff.
Hi Daniel,

StaffTab is certainly dense, but as an instructional notation it gives the player everything they need to know. For more advanced work, I would remove the string markers, and that would make things easier to read. It's not really a critical piece of information anyway since each note can exist in only one string at a given fret.

The biggest weakness with tablature, of course, is that it doesn't convey rhythm, a pretty big omission in trying to convey a musical idea.

I think the Songbook iteration of StaffTab is more successful, because it is more succinct.

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Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:35 pm
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
Don't forget that piano music can get "crowded" with instructions on where and how to play as well (i.e. fingering numbers, added instructions, etc). On any instrument, the more experienced you are the more you no longer need this instruction and the more you'd rather make your own choices as those choices have an impact on the sound of the final piece. That's one of the differences with the various publishers of classical music. Some publishers are considered more "advanced" and will put out piano music with no fingering markers at all. The music is in it's most basic form and left to the performer to decide (out of experience mostly). Other publishers will have varying degrees of added instruction.

I look at StaffTab as grand staff with the most added instruction for how to play on Stick. The least advanced so to speak. If you can read, you don't technically need any of the added notation. But it sure makes things go faster and it also gives you insight into the decisions the author made on where to play things.

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Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:32 pm
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
As a guy who is called to play "bass" parts in many situations, I have always felt that being able to look at a written bass line and make it come to life (on which ever instrument I have in my hands) is essential. I am often asked to "come over to the high school jazz band rehearsal and play bass, the bassist is out sick" If I have my stick I go and I play. I sight read the bass lines. It's really important to me that I can do this. I can read bass lines in 5th tuning because it is a skill I need, and I have worked at it (almost every day using the Simandle bass method).

I also read on the melody side. I can sight transpose most simple trumpet, alto sax, clarinet, french horn, viola parts etc.

Reading grand staff is something I will never do....on any instrument. My brain won't process the information in a way which is usable in a real time situation.

I would think that for some .....reading a grand staff may be very important. And I think it can be done. I think it will be done. and, I think the method will (has to) come from those folks.

I wonder if someone will be able to read grand staff with 5ths bass? I think it can be done.

So I say Go for it!!!!!!!! also I highly recommend working on bass side reading for those how play 5th bass. It is hard to think of a better way to learn that half of the instrument.

If the "classical" approach is the way you think music ...then please follow your bliss and advance the technique for others.

Brett


Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:16 pm
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
mad_monk wrote:
Piano music is generally much more playable in fourths, and you will have a much easier time using the theory books as discussed above.

If the goal is to play piano music, then that makes sense. That hasn't been a goal for me. The way I see it, the less I try to think like a pianist, the more I can explore what the Stick can offer. From that view-point, trying to use the Stick more like a piano seems counter-productive, especially in the initial learning stages.

I actually like that the 5ths tuning makes me think about my two hands a bit differently. It's causing me to re-think how my hands can relate to each other musically and to try out ways to use them more independently.

Tim Clark wrote:
I've found that sometimes I actually move my hand the wrong direction when I'm playing. In other words, moving toward the bridge when I'm trying to play a lower note. There are certainly other things as well..

I've done this too. The reversed motion to pitch in the left hand is definitely something to get used to.


Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:42 pm
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
Per Boysen wrote:
But I don't understand how a particular tuning or STick model would make it easier to play "piano music" from a score. Isn't it just to (1) memorize where notes are on your instrument, (2) read the score to find when in time to play notes and (3) do it? Are you meaning that certain melodic runs and intervals in "piano music" are naturally easy to play on a piano but may be difficult on a Stick because of how the hands has to be moved? Is that what this is about?

Hi Per,

When I started out playing Bach, only the fixed-bridge ten-string in classic tuning was available (if you put fourths in the bass, you had intonation problems and insufficient range). I used it for 11-12 years before getting a Grand in fourths and the difference was dramatic--not only were the left hand parts easier, requiring less frantic movement, but the coordination of the hands was instantly much better. In the frequent cases of parallel motion and phrases echoed between hands, the hands change strings at the same time, and make similar shapes. Only one set of interval shapes is used for both hands instead of one for each hand. In this tuning, it is actually easier to play unison passages than on a piano because both first fingers play A, second fingers play B, etc.

I can honestly say I gave fifths a shot; I think its main advantage is that it turns the fretboard into a graphical user interface, but I prefer to use the grand staff for this.


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Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:58 pm
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