Hi. first of all, not currently a player, but interested in stick

stick-curious?

I saw a little thread on 5ths, but since I've got a slightly different perspective I thought I'd ask in a separate thread
(I can certainly move over if it seems redundant)

Just to let you know where I'm coming from. My background is from the violin family, so 5ths is sort of my native

Also, I'm interested in counterpoint. It seems from a neophyte (or non-o-phyte since I don't play stick) point of view that many stick players tend to come more from a homophonic, melody and harmony, approach.
I think I saw Mr Chapman say that he had an accordion background which tends to use that approach encoded in the instrument.

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it seems like a fifths tuning on the upper register side might allow for that longitudinal hand motion rater than the typing motion that Mr Howard describes quite a bit in his basic mechanics advice.

There was some discussion about the stretch benefit of 5ths in the lower positions disappears somewhat as the upper register is smaller fingering...but that would seem to balance out the 4 note per string, retrograde scalar motion we get in 5ths tuning. what I mean is, stretching to maintain linear fluidity doesn't seem to be as much of a problem since the "jump" between an upper/lower position (hopefully that not too violin specific a term) isn't so physically large -so it wouldn't feel so disjoint (and could stay fluid)
Is the fluidity feel mainly from being used to fourths for you guys?

chord voicings in fourths, I understand, but it isn't native to me (and being from the violin family, things above triple-stops isn't exacty sci-fi but is a bit like doing an iron cross on olympic rings)
so that is something I don't have a practical handle on.

full chordal voicing was never the big primary thing in my background - but that does sort of interest me in this fashion - double stops and letting another instrument fill in the blanks is part of the approach, but with stick it seems like there is that oppotunity from a "two instrument" approach



any thoughts would be appreciated.

I just want to say in reading this forum and watching videos, your community seems amazingly welcoming and the different doesnt seem to be dismissed.
My compliments

Hi Robert, welcome.
As a fellow contra-punctual fanatic and a guy heavily into playing Bach on the Stick what I can say is: fourths will always be more fluid on the upper register (AKA Melody side) for a very simple reason: most contrapuntal music is scalar or relies heavily on scalar passages but there are no open strings on the Stick. On the bass side, however, the added difficulty of fifth’s and all that movement is well worth the trouble for what you gain: the obvious open sound in chords (triads in a very low register tend to sound muddy but, using 10ths instead of 3rds opens up the sound) but using 5ths means you also have a much bigger reach from the bass set of strings, meaning the overlapping of the two higher strings with the melody side is enormous. In my experience that enables you to use them as aids (like a false open string) while still maintaining a melody on the lower register (or a bass line plus chords), or, very close contrapuntal voice to the one on the melody side (like thirds, etc)
Finally, in my opinion, two sides in 5ths means both hands flying all over the place thus compromising the instrument’s vertical stability. One thing to keep in mind is: the hard part of playing the stick is accuracy and control. Look at it this way: the energy to tap a string is minimal , the pickup sensitivity does all the heavy amplification work witch means, unlike an acoustic instrument, where the parasite noises are way below the volume of a note, in this instrument they are quite close. A tiny scratch or nail noise is as much amplificated as the note you’re playing. As any stickist that ever played live can tell you, not a pretty sight when that happens.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Rodrigo Serrao



Enviado do meu iPhone usando o Tapatalk

Thans for the thoughts

interestingly, I don't tend to use open strings for scalar string crossing on other instruments (there are some methods that say things like open ascending f4 when descending and so on - but it's very very situationally dependent - like if open is even the next note!!)
open I find, has some problems or maybe features...for one the sound is different and it tends to hold the energy you bow into it more (it can feel like playing volleyball with a balloon if that makes sense)
for another, it's statically intonated..which gets problematic in an enseble when you are actively intonating against other members also actively intonating (advantage is we can may our intervals whatever we want temperament-wise)

So I'm a f4 guy on the fifths instrument I currently play and while I have open as an option (esp in folk styles the open gets used more often, but that tends to be more diatonic on the "home keys") , I don't default to that.
you know the old saw...don't play an open note unless you mean it


that's not to imply it's going to translate to stick, just I don't find opens to be inherently needed in scale work in fifths (though learning to use f4 is a hurdle we all go through)

As you are used to fifths and interested in counterpoint, fifths on both sides seems the most suitable tuning. Standard Stick tuning, or using different tunings for each side, seems clearly irrational for counterpoint.
Certainly, standard Stick tuning is orientated towards a certain way of playing, with the sides being used in different and particular ways, it is less neutral than most other instruments.

bachdois,

> fourths will always be more fluid on the upper register (AKA Melody side) for a very simple reason: most contrapuntal music is scalar or relies heavily on scalar passages but there are no open strings on the Stick.

True, but this also applies to the bass side, so would make a case for also tuning that in fourths (although i am certainly not suggesting this in this case). With a counterpoint approach both sides are treated the same.

> On the bass side, however, the added difficulty of fifth’s and all that movement is well worth the trouble for what you gain [...]

I consider this applies to the melody side too, as there are range and overlap advantages.

Whether in 10 or 12 string form, standard Stick tuning has a restricted and high-pitched melody range. This is due to only having 5 or 6 strings in fourths, but also, assuming crossed-hands technique, the melody hand is generally limited to fret 7 and up.
For 10 string, the melody side is equivalent to a losing the 2 lowest strings from a 6 string guitar.
For 12 string, the melody side is equivalent to a losing the lowest string from a 6 string guitar.

Standard Stick tuning may have overlap, but it is mostly bass side extending up into the high-pitched melody side. For counterpoint, extreme overlap is very useful, with the melody side extending to lower pitches.
So the overlap advantage of fifths also applies to the melody side.

Concerning the problem of hand shifting and control, this applies far more to the fifths bass side, but that tuning is liked and accepted by most Stick players. With counterpoint we cannot make the assumption that the bass side is played slower or in a less technical way.

As in the other 'fifths melody' thread i posted in, it seems to me that classic Stick tuning is being defended by arguments that are not being applied to both sides of the instrument.

I have a 50 year background in guitar, 40 years on pedal steel and its most common tuning (E9 chromatic) has all sorts of re-entrant string placement and abstruse logic, 15 years on the mandolin family in 5ths - especially mandola and octave mandolin, and for the past few years, 5ths/4ths Stick. So I have a pretty wide view of this subject. I view the bass side of the Stick as a left-handed single course mandocello flipped over and fretted upside down with the left hand. The melody side I view as a right handed-guitar tuned in straight 4ths and fretted overhand with the right hand. Further, when 4ths and 5ths are viewed as inverted versions of each other intervalically speaking - especially the matched reciprocal tuning, the geometry of these perceptions falls into nexus and a very logical mental map of the entire fretboard comes into focus. Because it's an isomorphic grid, chord and linear shapes are transferable from hand to hand and side to side too. It's just that the octaves and directions are reversed. You'll only internalize all that of course, by having the actual instrument in your hands and learning a few American songbook standards to get the lay of the land. Everything else is conversation.

The layout and tuning of the instrument is a product of the genius of Emmett Chapman. The longer you play the thing the more that sinks in. It could easily be the best use of two human hands on a stringed instrument yet devised. Right up there with piano I'd say. For me the hardest part of learning Stick is developing articulate technique in right hand tapping.

To my mind there are a couple reasons why 5ths on the melody would be counter productive. One is the range of available string gauges that could take the stress of being tuned to such an arrangement and even if you started with the highest string on a standard tuning which is already about as high as you can go, and worked your way down in 5ths, there would be way too much overlap in the low end of the melody side and the low mids of the bass side. The other reason is that you couldn't get the tri-tones and other tight voicings and compact scalar lines you can on the melody side (in 4ths) that blend so well with the wide open voicings on the bass side (in 5ths). That's my view anyhow.

For counterpoint Rob Martino's mirrored fourths allows maximum range with both hands. Even without the awesomely deep chords that 5ths allow, his chords and playing always sound "full" to me.

For ease of understanding both hands and being able to learn counterpoint faster keeping both sides mirrored in either 4ths or 5ths would probably be easiest.

Personally I like 4ths for melody because I was used to it on guitar and bass and I like 5ths in bass because a fat bass string in the middle of the neck surrounded by tiny strings looks too badass to pass up for me. It helps that I like the 5ths chords too.

Whatever you are used to playing (or whatever looks most awesome) will help you reach your goals (of playing well or looking awesome) faster.

I think i know what you meant by 'isomorphic', but it is only harmonically isomorphic in particular tunings, where the progression of fourths/fifths continues onto the other side. Most official Stick tunings do not do that, only Dual Bass Reciprocal does.

With the same tuning on both sides, shapes are transferable without pitch inversion, which seems more useful and intuitive. The shapes are flipped over of course, but this actually preserves their orientation to the structure of the hands, because the hands are mirrored. So in a way shapes are not actually flipped over. Fingerings for those shapes are then unchanged relative to the structure of the hands, very useful and means the shapes remain playable.

This is not an issue, it seems Stick Enterprises have a complete range of gauges that will result in ideal tension for any tuning imaginable.

It is strange that you would consider more range overlap a disadvantage, as this is what is liked so much about standard Stick tunings, it is a central part of Stick tuning philosophy.
More overlap can only be a good thing (especially for counterpoint), is part of the reason why 12 string Stick exists, and as i mentioned above, it fixes the problem of the restricted piccolo-guitar range on the melody side.

Choosing 10 strings for mirrored fifths will reduce overlap if someone really wants to do that.
A 12 string in mirrored fifths would have a melody side with a lowest string at Eb1. Considering that the melody side is usually restricted to fret 7 and up, the typical lowest usable pitch would then be a delicious baritone Bb1 (2 semitones below cello low C). This pitch is not particularly low at all.

Theory about how it will work is just theory about how it will work. I have tried every tuning ON THE INSTRUMENT. Wait. Not 4ths/4ths & not 5ths/5ths.
BUT... I have tried it. You can't just IMAGINE that on an instrument Emmett had something going on but you can do whatever you want... You still have to start from an instrument or you have to MAKE ONE.

So...

I've known at least one player who did this in Montreal. It's is a cool idea on one level. You do get lots of overlap between the string sets.

What you can't do is have the lowest melody note match the lowest bass note. Let's say you use the regular Stick bass tuning. Unless you want to start at exactly the same pitch, the lowest melody note cannot be a C, you will simply run out of strings. It could be a G, matching the 2nd bass string, which would give you a high note of B. The highest note it could be is Bb a 7th above the bass low C.

I hope that helps your thought experiment!

sure, but I figure have to aim before you fire.
just a thought and a question - it's like beta in rockclimbing.

"hey man, been up that route? anything I should be aware of? any hidden gotchas? good places to lay pro?"