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 Another tuning question.... why not 5ths in the melody side? 
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Post Another tuning question.... why not 5ths in the melody side?
I don't know if I should be starting a new thread with each question, but I figure if anyone comes along later and has the same question they'll be able to find it easier in the subject line than buried in the thread.

Anyhow, I've been watching the Free-hands Friday #43 on tunings. Greg explains the rational behind the inverted 5ths tuning (THANKS!!!!! I think I finally get it now.) One of the things he emphasizes is that you have a wider range of notes under one hand - a 2 1/2 octave range under one hand. So why not do the same thing on the melody side? Wouldn't that help with cord shapes on that side? Or does that make them too cramped because you typically are playing further down the neck where the frets are closer together?

Sorry for all the questions... but at least I'm learning a lot!

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Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:41 pm
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Post Re: Another tuning question.... why not 5ths in the melody s
I've known a couple of players who use this, and it's an interesting choice.

But there are two big sacrifices in exchange of what you get for expanded range (the only advantage in this case)

1. No cluster chord voicings (this is less of an issue in the bass, but still an issue for people who want those voicings in a single hand). Since we don't have open strings like other instruments, everything has to be fretted. Open strings allow a certain amount of clustered voicings, provided you are using the pitches the open strings allow.

2. You give up the simple three-notes-per-string of diatonic melody. For those of us who love three-fingered melody, and all the speed and fluid lines it gives us, that magic would just vanish...

5ths in the bass has one advantage for chords over 4ths: almost all of the common chord shapes can be played on three frets or less, and they all fit the natural shape of the hand quite nicely. This is a huge plus when the frets are really far apart as on the bass scale end or The Stick, but it's much less important when the frets are close together.

The common major chord shape

Code:
R | - | -
5 | - | -
- | - | 3


is not very fun to play inverted in the right hand as it would be in the 5ths you are suggesting:

Code:
- | - | 3
5 | - | -
R | - | -


For those of you who have Sticks, try playing this as a sustained arpeggio at he higher frets :o

Whereas, all of the common chord shapes in 4ths fit the hand very nicely as they reach back toward the nut.

I'm a huge fan of the ergonomics of the tunings, and how they interface with the fretboard as Emmett developed his tuning. It doesn't do "everything", (no tuning would) but it exploits the optimum sonic regions of the board very nicely, and offers an expansive orchestral pallet like no other.

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Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:02 pm
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Post Re: Another tuning question.... why not 5ths in the melody s
I study with Trey from time to time... he has 5ths across... I had my STICK tuned that way a few years ago. It was fun and it was creative, in that you had to "think" outside the box and it took you away from that standard "guitar" or "blues" way of thinking about playing and composing. After a I got some facility on the instrument, I saw that the 5h's across the board was not going to allow me to play the music I heard in my head. I have gone from Classic to MR. I like both of those tunings , and have been in Classic for a while now.


Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:41 pm
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Post Re: Another tuning question.... why not 5ths in the melody s
funny you say that about the blues, rclere. i swear i never played blues until i got a Stick and it's because of THE BASS 5TH'S. not talkin jazz blues, talkin blues blues, swamp blues, down to the crossroads deal-with-the-devil blues. it's been an education. back to the Mad Monk thread, the Stick has taught me more theory/harmony than any other instrument

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Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:41 am
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Post Re: Another tuning question.... why not 5ths in the melody s
After an experience at GuitarCraft, I reversed the tuning on my Stick for a while: bass in ascending 4ths and melody in ascending 5ths. I figured I could do familiar bass lines (from playing bass for years) in the left hand and then do "Crafty" things in my right.

At first I dug this, but soon started to see the drawbacks (and the wisdom of Emmett's original designs and tunings): it became more difficult to generate decent sounding chords on the bass side and became more difficult to do close-voiced chords in the right (and, as Greg pointed out, even the open voiced chords became more tricky....).

All tunings have their strengths and drawbacks; it is up to you to decide if the strengths of any particular tuning outweigh the drawbacks with respect to the types of things you want to play. For me, my little experiment seemed to present more drawbacks than advantages. Emmett knew what he was doing with bass in 5ths and melody in 4ths.

So before long, I reverted back to baritone melody-standard bass.

I still recommend, however, that guitar players (and even bass players) give tuning in ascending 5ths a try on their traditional instruments. Red Mitchell was an early proponent of jazz bass in 5ths and, of course, Fripp is a major proponent of his C pentatonic (Crafty) tuning in ascending 5ths (except for the 1st string.)

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Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:02 am
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Post Re: Another tuning question.... why not 5ths in the melody s
Firstly i want to be clear that i do not consider any tuning as 'superior', as different people have different needs, and even one person often has differing needs and may use multiple tunings.
I am interested in fifths-based tunings but also, just as much, in small interval tunings such as thirds.

I agree that chords are different in fifths. Although, in losing the possibility of small-interval chords you also gain the possibility of new types of chords, so it is not all sacrifice and extra range is therefore not the only advantage of fifths.
greg wrote:
2. You give up the simple three-notes-per-string of diatonic melody. For those of us who love three-fingered melody, and all the speed and fluid lines it gives us, that magic would just vanish...

The common major chord shape
is not very fun to play inverted in the right hand as it would be in the 5ths you are suggesting:
For those of you who have Sticks, try playing this as a sustained arpeggio at he higher frets

My response is that fast, fluid melody and sustained arpeggios are also likely to be played on the bass side.

I think these quoted points, and many other criticisms of fifths melody elsewhere in the forum, make assumptions about how the 2 sides are used, and apply differing standards to each side. This is fine, of course, if someone plays a Stick in a certain way and is choosing a tuning suitable for that.

Some points, approaching this in a more general, neutral and universal way ...

A key point in response to criticism of fifths on the melody side is simply:
But the bass side is tuned in fifths :D

If we make no assumptions about how the sides are used:

* If fifths on the melody side is problematic, due to the extra distance that needs to be covered and requiring 4 notes per string, then, fifths is certainly problematic on the bass side which tends to be played on lower frets that have wider fret spacing.

* If fifths is acceptable on the bass side, then, fifths is certainly acceptable on the melody side which tends to be played on higher frets that have narrower fret spacing.

Everything that is good about the left hand and fifths on the bass side (which is a lot of good stuff), is also good for the right hand and fifths on the melody side, because the 2 sides and the 2 hands are mirrored, so have the same ergonomics and geometry of interaction with the strings.


Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:04 pm
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Post Re: Another tuning question.... why not 5ths in the melody s
ixlramp wrote:
Firstly i want to be clear that i do not consider any tuning as 'superior', as different people have different needs, and even one person often has differing needs and may use multiple tunings.
I am interested in fifths-based tunings but also, just as much, in small interval tunings such as thirds.

I agree that chords are different in fifths. Although, in losing the possibility of small-interval chords you also gain the possibility of new types of chords, so it is not all sacrifice and extra range is therefore not the only advantage of fifths.
greg wrote:
2. You give up the simple three-notes-per-string of diatonic melody. For those of us who love three-fingered melody, and all the speed and fluid lines it gives us, that magic would just vanish...

The common major chord shape
is not very fun to play inverted in the right hand as it would be in the 5ths you are suggesting:
For those of you who have Sticks, try playing this as a sustained arpeggio at he higher frets

My response is that fast, fluid melody and sustained arpeggios are also likely to be played on the bass side.

I think these quoted points, and many other criticisms of fifths melody elsewhere in the forum, make assumptions about how the 2 sides are used, and apply differing standards to each side. This is fine, of course, if someone plays a Stick in a certain way and is choosing a tuning suitable for that.

Some points, approaching this in a more general, neutral and universal way ...

A key point in response to criticism of fifths on the melody side is simply:
But the bass side is tuned in fifths :D

If we make no assumptions about how the sides are used:

* If fifths on the melody side is problematic, due to the extra distance that needs to be covered and requiring 4 notes per string, then, fifths is certainly problematic on the bass side which tends to be played on lower frets that have wider fret spacing.

* If fifths is acceptable on the bass side, then, fifths is certainly acceptable on the melody side which tends to be played on higher frets that have narrower fret spacing.

Everything that is good about the left hand and fifths on the bass side (which is a lot of good stuff), is also good for the right hand and fifths on the melody side, because the 2 sides and the 2 hands are mirrored, so have the same ergonomics and geometry of interaction with the strings.


Not so sure about the “fast fluid melodies are also likely to be played on the bass side” part of your exposition here.

People accomplish it on rare occasions. but it’s not something I find the bass side well suited for with its fifths tuning and larger fret spacing where your left hand tends to live.


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Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:29 pm
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Post Re: Another tuning question.... why not 5ths in the melody s
My Warr Phalanx is tuned melody 5ths bass 4ths, and it is very fun to play.

Now - I went with this because the melody side is on top, while the bass is on the bottom - opposite of the Stick - BUT the melody side is set up inverted, instead of the traditional Phalanx where the tuning is like the Bass side, almost like double neck tuning on one neck.... and to my surprise - because I bought this instrument used, it tuned to pitch quite well in 5ths with the melody, and since it's upside down - like classic Stick bass side - to me, it made total sense...

My only complaint is the neck is like playing a table - if that was a real skinny neck, I bet that tuning would be a real blast !!


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