Thanks Dave, that really helps. I read another post somewhere by Kevin Keith to the same effect re slow attack pads. Makes perfect sense.

The picture I saw on in the Hot Shots gallery showed the 2 GKs mounted either side of the Stick right down at the bridge (have a look and you'll see what I mean - it's the salmon-dyed grand). I just thought it spoiled the look of the instrument as well as not being very intuitive - ie one of the units would be awkward to reach/see, and the units appear to be mounted on the opposite side from the strings they relate to. The Stick is such a well thought out and beautifully crafted instrument - the 2 GKs look like they are "stuck on" without that same attention to ergonomics, aesthetics and design consideration... Maybe I'm being to picky about what would still be an awesome piece of kit!! I'm struggling to see where they could put the GKs though - maybe round the back (behind the GK pickups) would be better than where they are in that photo?

Also does anyone know if they apply the GK3 installation charge to a new stick during production or is this charge just for retrofits?

Thanks --David

I have been using a Roland pickup on basses and guitars for a few years now. I don't care what anyone says, the tracking on a low bass freq. is no where near as good as it is on higher ones. Lots of patches are totally useless.
I imagine it would be the same on the lower notes of a stick. Altho there are a lot less low notes on a stick tunes in fifths then there are on a six string bass.

Question for DaveS! I read a post of yours from a while back that included the following:

>>>I've been working on a dual-GK project using the GK-kits and will be making my own pickup bar and controller housing hoping to get the controls in a more usable position<<<

Did you go ahead and do this, and if so how did it turn out? Are you able to post a pic here?

Thanks --David

I'm not an expert on DSP but I guess there are 2 main reasons for this:
- The lower pitches are much more 'compressed in the frequency range'. The difference between C1 and C#1 is around 2Hz (really not much error margin here) and C4 and C#4 is around 25Hz.
- In order to determine pitch you need at least a couple of cycles, so for a C1 that means between 2/33ths and 3/33ths of a second.

Cheers, Daniel.

So your saying that in technical terms, the low freq. tracking sucks? LOL Just kidding

I put the project on hold. My Paduak Grand came with the slot already cut for a GK pickup - however, becasue of how close the PASV4 pickup was to the neck it makes it nearly impossible to put the GK bar on. Basically, because of the size of the individual pickup sensors you need ~1/4" wide pcb to mount them. Because of how the PASV4 is mounted (it cuts through the GK mounting slot at the end) it will cause the bottom of the PCB to possibly rub on the forward bridge screw of the 1st strings saddle assembly. I've been giving some thought to milling down the top of or even relocating the forward screw. Perhaps even milling the bottom of the saddle thinner so I have the required clearance. It's not a high priority right now - but you never know.... I should add that I don't believe this issue is on every Stick with a PASV4 - I think it is unique to mine.

That's helpful Dave. Have you seen the photo of the Salmon-dyed bamboo grand with dual GK3 on the Stick website?

http://stick.com/instruments/hotshots/

It shows the two modified pickup strips staggered to fit around the problem you describe (admittedly this is with the ACTV-2, not sure if that's any smaller than the PASV-4). If SE can do it, then it's obviously possible to fit all the pickups on there. I just wonder how difficult it would be to DIY...

I looked at the GK3 kit instructions and it would be possible to house all the electronics for 2 GKs in an black aluminium box fixed to the back of the Stick, pretty much hidden by the Stick's own pickup housing and with all the controls on the bass side and the 2 GK outputs on the melody side. Puting that together would be easy. It's just the pickup customisation I'm not sure about. Presumably SE have progressively experimented with it for years and have learned stuff that you only learn by trial and error. Kind of good to have the benefit of that knowledge... but then look at the cost. (I'm in the UK which means I have to pay import duty and VAT (tax) on anything I pay SE to do. That bumps up the price of MIDI a lot. The GK kits are fairly cheap here.)

That and I'd have to stay with the 2 Roland plastic stick-on units instead of my own custom metal housing which would be more cool and more practical. Hmmmmm. I wonder if I bought the kits and sent just the pickups to SE, would they agree to do the pickup customisation then let me do the rest??

Hmm - that Stick doesn't show up when I go to the link. The first Stick I see - a Wenge Grand - has the PASV4 and GK3 installed. The point on the PASV4 that is right next to the GK3 extends almost to the middle of the slot on mine (move the PASV4 in this picture closer to the bridge - but the slot stays where it is). This is what is keeping me from just dropping one in.

Regarding sending your GK to Stick - you would have to talk to them about it. They have to remove the magnetic pickups from the existing pu bar and mount them on a circuit board so that they are closer together - and it's pretty tight...on mine ~.3 inches which is just about the size of the pickups. Then they pot the assembly in acrylic. This is pretty labor intensive and is why they charge more.

I had thought about making a single pu bar that had all of the pickups on it but then I would loose my ability to adjust the height in the middle. I wouldn't want the pu's under the bass strings to be the same distance as those under strings 5 and 6. I've been playing with some designs that put two pu bars in-line which would keep me from having to route another slot. BTW - your idea of the box on the back and controls on the bass side is exactly what I was going to do. I wasn't able to find a suitable box so I was considering milling one from aluminum (have a block of it on my work bench) but I might go with wood - maybe a block of Paduak to match the instrument - and just line it with shielding.

I've been so busy playing it though that I've put the project on hold....maybe this spring I'll get back on it.

It's the centre photo in the third row - click through to the slideshow and there's a good close-up of the bridge end. I like the way the pickups are mounted, I just don't care much for the plastic Roland units and I think they look a bit awkward placed where they are in this example.


I need to give them a ring soon anyway so will ask. I have other questions before I order my Stick. I agree with what you're saying - it's a pretty fiddly job and I think I'd be better to stump up the cash and let SE do the pickup modification. I still would like to do the 2 kits for the rest of the electronics though...


I found this anodised aluminium box (black). It's not expensive at all. Do you think it's too big? It's longest dimension would still be less than the width of the PASV-4 pickup so it would mostly be hidden except the controls would be in the ideal place for the player. 30.5mm (1.2") thick - I figure any thinner and it wouldn't accommodate the GK output ports.

http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/1455L1201.pdf
http://www.hammondmfg.com/jpeg2/1455L1201BK_AB.jpg


Haha well at least you have a great reason for not getting round to it
Thanks for helping though. BTW I looked up your Myspace - Love your ambient stuff!

--David

Well, I've been following this thread but haven't had a chance to chime. Alot has been covered, I just thought I'd share some of experience as I've used midi on stick for 8-9 years.

First, you had to adjust to midi because it will not adjust to you. I've used the roland gr-33 for a while and as with other processors, some patches just don't work well, grand piano, bells, sounds with more attack cause the midi to be more "glitchy". Just like you have to set action on the stick low, you have to make sure the midi pickups have the right spacing to the strings, this makes a big difference and they give you a tool to help measure the depth.

Last year I had dual midi installed on my grand and never looked back. The change has been phenomenal. The situation in one of the groups I play for is unique in that the stick is used for midi exclusively as back up synth. The set up is dual Roland GR-10s to a midi solutions 2 in 1 out box then to a korg triton and motif es rack. The full 12 strings go to the synths and I switch between them with volume pedals. I experimented with one synth on the bass side and the other on the melody but did away with this as I mostly use one sound at a given time, usually, strings, organ or pad.

I never had a problem with the location of the pick ups, in fact even though they are on opposite sides the 3-way switch is the same for both, down is "guitar", middle is "mix" and up is "GK". Also, I adapted the stereo monster cable to connect each side to the GKs. Red is bass, black melody. This is nice because it sends the bass and melody signals through the two 13 pin cables and out of the back the GR10s.


When it comes to midi on the bass side I've always had problems with the lowest octave, some times higher. The band has a bass player so I don't play low anyway. I've adjusted my playing to what they call "closed position" in piano instruction from "open position". As a keyboard player your much more familiar to this than I am but on the stick it means that I don't play the lowest 2 strings. I spend a lot of time on 10-12 on the bass side with the raised 4th tuning. The voicing and potential here is unlimited. Unless you are familiar with keyboard voicing you'd never know it's a stick vs a keyboard.

I think you would really enjoy dual midi. Like Kevin Keith, the compliment of dual midi to the tones on the stick is great. I'm able to play in 3 set ups, midi exclusive, club setting with guitar processor, gr-33 on melody and amps or just the acoustic image in a solo setting.