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 Online Stick Lessons/Instruction... 
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Post Re: Online Stick Lessons/Instruction...
For those who knew of Michael Hedges, there was a guitarist by the name of James Roosa who ran the Rootwitch site (now defunct). It was a site much like this one with a forum which mostly discussed the "Michael Hedges" style of playing.

James took a few songs (such as "Ready Or Not") and made videos which displayed some techniques which would advance a player to be able to better things. He didn't do it for everything he knew, but for some crucial "building blocks" and fundamentals of the playing style.

Personally I'd like to see it, but I do understand the problems involved. It would probably be best as a volunteer effort by the people involved. I really enjoyed rootwitch while it lived...

-Michael

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Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:26 am
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Post Re: Online Stick Lessons/Instruction...
fcoulter wrote:
tritone wrote:
There is already a place here where people can ask questions about technique, theory, and gear and get answers and opinions. It's called the forum.


where we rely on the good nature of better players and instructors with lots of experience to give away the knowledge that they've gained over years and years of work, thus cutting into their own revenue streams.

We've had discussions about your economic and business acumen before.



And pray tell what is this great and wonderous knowledge you speak of? Hand independence? Modal and chordal theory? Rhythm and syncopation? Point and counterpoint? Notation and orchestration? Or do you just need someone to just sit you down and teach you how to tap a string?

Only a fool would pay money for something that can be gained from a music theory book from the library and by looking at the stick and using some common fucking sense. But why think when you can be led by the hand, eh?

tritone


Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:51 am
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Post Re: Online Stick Lessons/Instruction...
tritone wrote:
And pray tell what is this great and wonderous knowledge you speak of? Hand independence? Modal and chordal theory? Rhythm and syncopation? Point and counterpoint? Notation and orchestration? Or do you just need someone to just sit you down and teach you how to tap a string?

Only a fool would pay money for something that can be gained from a music theory book from the library and by looking at the stick and using some common fucking sense. But why think when you can be led by the hand, eh?


Feedeth not the troll, fellow Stickists.

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Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:09 am
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Post Re: Online Stick Lessons/Instruction...
tritone wrote:
Only a fool would pay money for something that can be gained from a music theory book from the library and by looking at the stick and using some common fucking sense. But why think when you can be led by the hand, eh?

tritone

I make my living as a teacher of a body of knowledge that is hard and complicated (computer programming, but that's not relevant). The vast majority of my students are smart enough to teach themselves but they come to me anyway. And they are not fools. They come to my classes for many reasons. They are busy and need the structure of formal classes. They are confused by all the different technologies and don't know where to start. They are smart enough but lack enough self-confidence to do it on their own. Some have severe learning disabilities and need to hear things differently. I have spent a lot of time adapting my teaching and materials to all my students, including my blind ones.

I spent a decade studying with a master guitar teacher. There is no way I could have learned everything I learned from him with just books. He had actual real-life experience as a professional, just like I do with computers. Some of my students only need me to point them in the right direction and they do the rest. Some need me to sit with them every week and talk them through that hard parts. Some don't even come very often and do fine. But, everyone is different and everyone has a different learning style.

Tritone, I'm glad that you don't need teachers and help, but most people do. Calling us all fools does not help anyone and just alienates you from this new forum. I call on you to please acknowledge that not everyone is not like you and to please stop your insults. They are not welcome.

What is welcome are your ideas and challenges for people to be more independent. If you think a certain book would help me please give me a link and I'll check it out. If you think a concept would be helpful let me know what it is, just stop insulting my learning style.

Thanks,

-Eric

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Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:10 am
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Post Re: Online Stick Lessons/Instruction...
tritone wrote:
fcoulter wrote:
tritone wrote:
There is already a place here where people can ask questions about technique, theory, and gear and get answers and opinions. It's called the forum.


where we rely on the good nature of better players and instructors with lots of experience to give away the knowledge that they've gained over years and years of work, thus cutting into their own revenue streams.

We've had discussions about your economic and business acumen before.



And pray tell what is this great and wonderous knowledge you speak of? Hand independence? Modal and chordal theory? Rhythm and syncopation? Point and counterpoint? Notation and orchestration? Or do you just need someone to just sit you down and teach you how to tap a string?

Only a fool would pay money for something that can be gained from a music theory book from the library and by looking at the stick and using some common fucking sense. But why think when you can be led by the hand, eh?

tritone


Tritone we all learn in different ways. Following your logic why have a school system when we have books? Only a fool would go to school! Why go to school to be a doctor ... read a book then you should be able to operate on someone! Not everyone understands what they read fully enough so they can apply it. Generally people learn faster and in many cases better when they are shown. I can spend time reading a book about music theory and over time gain understanding from it but I might be the type of person who learns QUICKER SEEING the theory put into action and seeing the theory applied to the instrument directly. I don't think there are a lot of free STICK books in the library.

A person who decides to "pay for lessons" isn't a FOOL! I've played with 100's of musicians and the musicians who are "schooled" tend to play with much more technique and generally are better players then the self taught players. A skilled teacher can help a student advance at a much faster rate and get past road blocks they may encounter. (Help correct poor technique, etc.) A book is only as good as how well it was written and your understanding of it. If you don't fully comprehend what you read your screwed.

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Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:42 am
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Post Re: Online Stick Lessons/Instruction...
Sorry guys, I seem to have stirred up a bit of a hornets nest, this seemed a pretty chilled place at 11.00 this morning. :oops:

As both a student of guitar and also teach beginner/intermediate guitar myself, I can say that tuition is certainly worthwhile, but mainly for the mechanics, why waste years of practice time, and possibly injury, trying to do something the wrong way, for example hand position (I'm not saying everyone should doggedly strive for identical way of holding an instrument) when all it would take is half an hour with someone with knowledge to set them straight.

On the flip side, I completely advocate using the infomation that the student has gathered to express themselves musically and this can't be taught simply because, as it implies, you can't express someone else for them!


Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:10 pm
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Post Re: Online Stick Lessons/Instruction...
This is probably a blatantly obvious observation, but I'd say a healthy approach is to balance instruction of experienced players/teachers with your own initiative/application of musical ideas, with emphasis on the latter.

On one hand, because of my particular tuning, I'm often my own as far as developing a style and coming up with strategies for song arrangements. The primary influence on my Stick playing is not another Stick player but perhaps Ian Anderson (frontman of Jethro Tull) whose acoustic guitar techniques are a big part of my left hand Stick style. I'm not interested in sounding like Tony Levin or being in a King Crimson style band (even though I love those guys), having always had a passion for the more folky/pastoral/baroque side of English prog. :) As a developing musician, when I heard something I loved I wanted to know everything I could about it, and so I set out to assimilate my musical influences. In the past this involved the long and often difficult process of learning the bass, guitar, and/or keyboard parts of songs I love, or trying to figure out chord progressions by ear. Now I'm attempting to take a lot of these ideas, both in the music theory and instrument technique realms, and adapting them to the Stick and hopefully it becomes a more unique and personal style. It's enormously fun and rewarding.

On the other hand, if I hadn't had a couple lessons with Greg when I first got stared with my tuning, I would have easily developed some bad habits that limited my potential to make progress. By focusing on instrument position, using the whole body and not putting all the stress on the fingers (a common pitfall when starting), and having the opportunity to meet with him in person to go over technique fundamentals, it gave me a foundation for going off and being creative/productive with my "rogue" tuning. When it comes to technique fundamentals, video or personal meetings are much more beneficial than simply reading ideas from a book... you need to see it in action. And I think guys like Greg and Steve would be the first to advocate the idea of "enabling" players to pursue their music goals, not creating mindless clones of themselves.

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Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:14 pm
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Post Re: Online Stick Lessons/Instruction...
This thought has sparked allot of colorful discussion I see.

Should things be free or not? I think the receiver should be quick to pay and the giver quick to give. (unless of course it is counter productive to do so) Of course, the presence of demand of the part of the receiver clearly demonstrates thankless devaluation in advance.

Isn't money an interesting animal? When one chases it for it's own sake it tends to run, yet it will chase you down when one maintains his focus on the fulfillment of purpose. Money comes best from behind and one's gifts make room for him by law of necessity independent of the force of condition.

Some can only learn from a teacher that charges, for they must pay in order to recognize value. Other's can recognize value in the seemingly worthless. I will often charge for that I would have freely given if I would have thought the receiver would treat the information as if they had paid thousands. Supply and demand is a poor quantifier of worth. Some of the most valuable things in life are the most available, yet least often recognized. Because of our society and the way we have been taught that "free advice is usually worth exactly what you paid for it" often we would be doing other's a disservice not to charge them or at least establish solid value as part of this "dance of contribution".

Let's say someone pays $100-200/month for personal lessons. They are not paying for content really but rather guidance, experience, and accountability. I think it is safe to say that provided the teacher is at least average that is money well spent.

Regardless of the implementation of pay sites, pay lessons, etc, I think great value could come from free-flowing collaboration, idea-sharing, and collective problem-solving. The process and underlying attitude that it fosters carries it's own reward that expresses itself on many levels.

I would certainly not mind and definitely not oppose online pay lessons of any sort although that was not what I was thinking when I started the thread. I personally have such volume of material to study and directional clarity that unless I encounter unforeseen issues or the topics are just so enticing I would probably not participate for a while. But that is the nice thing about video lessons is that they can be archived for future use.

My original thought was not to place a burden upon Greg, Steve, etc. but rather to encourage those even as new as myself to share their techniques, challenges, and cool discoveries for the sake of collective advancement. I have a friend that always says, "A rising tide, raises all the ships."

How can I teach when I am just beginning to learn? Often this is the very time that the cataloging of the discoveries of the moment or the response to a challenge of the moment can be captured while it still possesses it's "wonder". That "wonder" in this case being that unseen essence that speeds effective impartation to others that is naturally a part of a growth process and only a rare part of a "teaching" one.

Summary: Hey everyone, I encourage you to share your discoveries. In so doing, you'll grasp them deeper, retain them longer, and archive them for the future to your own benefit and others. Because of the synergy of what your discovery may spark in another that is faithful to likewise share their discovery you are further yet again. All these benefits while creating a trail of helpfulness that could help broaden the Stick world by reducing attrition and increasing exposure.

Like Pall Hansen always says, "A rising tide, raises all the ships."

Just a thought,

Curtis


Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:30 pm
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Post Re: Online Stick Lessons/Instruction...
Curtis you didn't start the idea of an on line classroom for money ... I added that angle to the discussion. I totally agree with you and others about sharing ideas and trying to help each other for free however your subject got me thinking about the lack of actual qualified "teachers" on the Stick and possible ways to make qualified teachers more available to people who WANT to pay for the services. I really appreciate the free availability of information and ideas on this forum however I don't expect an advanced player to go out of their way to deal with my needs on a one on one basis for free. There are 1000's of good guitar, bass, drum, sax, piano, etc. teachers available. They teach not only music theory they also apply that theory directly to the instruments. They observe the students performance and give advice in regard to technique, ergonomics, dynamics, all aspects of performance. I've been a professional musician my entire adult life. I've always suggested to new musicians that they take private lessons for a year or two minimum so they get off on the right foot before going off on their own. I believe fewer people would GIVE UP playing the Stick if they had access to actual teachers who will help them understand the instrument. As we know MANY people buy Sticks and eventually give up and sell them because they "don't get it." I'm a life long musician so i understand music however if there were a qualified Stick teacher in my area I would take my own advice and take some lessons to make sure "I'm" getting off on the right foot. As Rob (kind of) said ... you can and should take many approaches to your developement as a Stick player and a musician. But the availability of direct instruction and feedback is very valuable and can't be replaced by a book.

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Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:32 pm
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Post Re: Online Stick Lessons/Instruction...
Thor wrote:
I don't like the way many music forums tend to end up in bitter and lowdown insult barrages, so would rather not start something in my 1st post..however are you suggesting we don't ask each other questions?


Apologies.

I meant to aim my barbs at Tritone, not you. It appears I missed.

Greg and Steve do a wonderful job of sharing their knowledge on an informal basis here. There has been a suggestion that a more formal instructional site (with renumeration to the instructors) would be useful for those that wish to pay. This wouldn't stop Greg and Steve (and all the others) from continuing their participation here.

(It might even be considered good advertising...)

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Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:03 pm
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