Hi, everyone.

A couple of people have asked me how I'm liking all 4ths on my Sticks, so I thought I'd just post some thoughts about it.

I have Mirrored 4ths on my grand Stick and Piano 4ths on my SG12. I can say right now that I don't believe I'll be going back to 5ths on the bass side, I like 4ths that much. The decision for me was based on the music I want to learn. I like piano and guitar music with close voicings that move. I spent a very long time transcribing a Bach cello suite prelude back when I had 5ths. Nothing seemed to be smooth at first. I think I made five different versions before I got one that I could play fairly well at a good tempo. When I switched to all 4ths, the piece became much easier. Frequently, the first way I tried to play a passage was the best way. It felt like 5ths were fighting with me and making it hard to transcribe. With 4ths, the sense of fighting with it stopped and I can transcribe much more quickly with fewer compromises. I think I would have transcribed and learned to play the piece in half the time if I had started with 4ths.

I had the luxury of having two Sticks when I wanted to try 4ths. I was able to put all 4ths on my old poly and try it out little by little. I can understand being reluctant to try it when you have one Stick. You don't want to spend any time losing ground on technique and don't want to forget any tunes. But, it's worth a try if you are thinking about it. I think there are certain kinds of music that tend to work better in 4ths. I'm not into prog-rock, I like classical, folk, and some jazz. I was never a bass player and I really never played those really low notes down there below E on a bass. At one point I even noticed that I was learning pieces where I would never use the low string even. Once I noticed that I thought that maybe I should give 4ths a good try.

The 12-string Stick has also helped make this possible. I had a chat with Emmett once where he wondered out loud why people wanted a 12-string Stick. That made me realize that a 10-string and the 5ths tuning work really well together. I tried all 4ths on a 10-string and you run out of room and notes really quickly and it's just not feasible. But, with a 12-string with mirrored 4ths, the low note is the E of a 4-string bass and you can go high enough in the right hand that the tuning becomes feasible and a delight. I can now give Emmett my answer to his question. I want a 12-string so I can have all 4ths.

5ths on the bass have a great history and so much music has been played and recorded on it that I recommend that new players start with it. But, there is also starting to be a new history made with all 4ths. Rob Martino is a good example and his new CD is just plain great all around. I think he has inspired this new interest in 4ths and has given us all an example to follow.

I'm also loving 4ths on my SG-12. This seems to be the ultimate Stick for an old guitarist like me. I'm still working on a video of me playing it. Maybe soon, I can't tell.

One final thought. Emmett's Sticks are so well made and so versatile that we can have these discussions about different tunings and different musical styles. This is a good time to be a Stickist!

-Eric

Thanks for taking the time to relate your experiences Eric.

been checking out the many tuning options available, an i think it is great that the stick makers offer fourhts+fourhts as a valid alternative. I think it is a great selling point for the many bassists and guitarists that are spellbound by the stick sound and looks but have a hard time finding time for learning a new tuning system. I have been reading some posts here and there where some ppl seem too look almost down on fourhts tuning hehe, but it's good to know that this attitude obviously doesn't come from those who makes the stick. they seem to be open to any tuning really. HEY, what about tuning the top 3-4 strings in fourhts, and the lowest in fifths on the low region. It will almost like a stick tuning within the stuck tuning-> CGDADGC . You get a great range but also some new chord possibilities with some deep bass notes on it. I'm expecting a huge discount on a stick for coming up with stuff like this!

just out of curiosity, has anyone tried mirrored 5ths?

Hi Kyle

There's a guy in Montreal named Sebastian Rooney who plays mirrored 5ths. He was doing some pretty interesting things with it. It probably makes more sense on a 10-string instrument. On a 12-string the melody range would go way down into the bass range, those thick bass strings don't sound so great up above the 12th fret or so.

I think the real key for 2-part tapping in any tuning is the mirrored relationship. It just fits the hands much better, especially for chordal playing. Compare what Rob is doing with anyone playing parallel 4ths, and it's easy to see just how much more versatile mirrored 4ths is than parallel 4ths. I look forward to seeing more and more players take it up.

If you're only going to play bass lines or monophonic counterpoint, parallel is fine, but as soon as chords enter the picture, mirrored is clearly better. I see some folks write about chords with parallel 4ths, but they only pick a few choice chords that work, and don't tell you about all the other ones that are juts plain difficult.

So picking up on what harrisonbuick wrote, Emmett's justifiably proud of the fact that his instruments support any custom tuning (they have since 1991). The tunings that are "recommended" on the site are tunings that have been proven to optimize musical possibilities for range and bass and chordal possibilities.

Coming from bass or guitar, these tunings may not give you "instant gratification" but if you spend a little time with them, you'll discover that they are more open-ended, and that with them your music can really grow beyond simple concepts of "bass+guitar". Stick playing is so much more than that.

Yes, thanks for the update, Eric. I'm also enjoying my mirrored 4ths SG12 quite a lot! I wish I were more advanced so I could actually say it made a difference in anything I play, though. That'll come with time, I'm sure.

As I mentioned in my original post about the SG12, I somehow find it more intuitive than my 10-string, but I have trouble putting my finger on exactly why that is. It could be the different tuning, fret spacing, the width, string spacing, or length.

I don't remember if I mentioned it in my previous post, but I'm extremely pleased with the string spacing and the width of the SG12. I have no double-string hit problems, and I find it very easy to double-stop whenever I want. Also I think the width causes my fingers to come down on the strings more perpendicular. All around I'm very happy, and very happy that the big house work project has pretty much wrapped up so I'm back to practicing. I need to make another video soon.

Dan

I've never understood the need for a giant repertoire of chords for the left hand. All you're doing is attaching the bass voice, which should be generally more active, to inner voices, which should be less so...the most free two-handed music alternates between monophonic, double stop, and 3-note chord textures in each hand, within the same passage; voices drop in and out. I don't know of anyone composing music like that for this instrument, but it's possible in fourths.

Mad Monk.

Hi Randy,

I see your point from a keyboard perspective, but if you think more broadly about the left hand as an accompaniment tool there's plenty of good reason for thinking about broadening chordal possibilities. In popular music, for example, guitarists tend to have as much or more motion in the higher parts of the chord, in jazz they tend to play the whole chord as a block.

Since we don't have open strings or a sustain pedal, being able to hold some notes of a chord while simultaneously voicing others gives us a fuller sound than merely moving through the notes of a chord individually in succession. Because it's possible to hold bass notes while voicing other notes in a chord (again some tunings make this much easier than others) we can even serve as bass and guitar simultaneously in just one hand.

It's true that it won't be as complex or as elaborate and two musicians working in tandem would be, but the left hand by itself can be a multi-function accompaniment engine. Again, certain tunings are going to support this possibility better than others.

*************

Eric, I'm really glad you've taken this road. I believe mirrored 4ths holds great possibilities. I'm still exploring some myself on my standard ten-string, with a bass+guitar type of tuning, but it does get a little confusing switching back and forth between 4ths and 5ths for my left hand. Rather than put a serious time investment into it, I think I'll just practice my 5ths more and leave the serious work to you guys who are committed to it.

How are the other parameters of the tuning working out for you (the octave placement, etc)?

Thanks for the comments, everyone.

I think it's interesting that we Stickists have these long conversations about tunings. Maybe only guitar players talk about tunings this much. If I decided to take up the cello, I would be told by a teacher or a book that this is the cello tuning and that's that. The fact that it's in 5ths would be of interest, but I don't think I would immediately start experimenting with alternatives. The standard guitar tuning with the 3rd, is a compromise that allows more chords to be fingered by the left hand. I spent a decade learning the shapes and I knew them well.

The Stick is different. The consistency of the tuning in 4ths or 5ths with no open strings creates an instrument that doesn't favor keys. This seem fairly unique. I'm learning a piece in G# minor with 5 sharps. There was a time when that would have been intimidating. With the Stick I realized a bit ago that I didn't really even think about that, I just started learning the piece, the key signature didn't matter. That's really cool and I think it's a major feature of the instrument.

Dan: I know what you mean about the SG12 just feeling more intuitive. I think all the things you mentioned combine into one sweet instrument. It's now my main instrument and my grand is feeling lonely and neglected.

Randy: I am starting to explore close and moving voices that are all across the fretboard. I think the potential is incredible and I'm having fun with it.

Greg: Thanks for the encouragement! I believe that people who have put the time in and learned 5ths on the bass probably don't have any compelling reason to switch at this point. There certainly is a huge amount of music possible and you have shown us lots of it. By switching to 4ths after a couple of years I do feel that it set me back some in my progress. It's already worth it to me, but I lost many months and most of the tunes I knew. It's not quite starting over, but pretty close. So far, I think the piano tuning with its octave separation between the sides is great. I'm not sure that any other tuning would be any better. I am planing on charting out some other options with the pieces I'm learning. And I'm starting to transcribe and adapt some classic pieces from the Stick repertoire. What would you think of "Adrift" played a fourth higher with the piano 4ths tuning on an SG? The first page sounds beautiful to me.

-Eric

Adrift sounds pretty good to me! It's the song I was working on before I got the SG12. I'd been thinking of trying it out in 4ths too, to see how it works. The accompaniment portion worked very well in 5ths. Now you've got me curious...