Correct! Technically speaking, what matters is the fixed distance between the two pick-ups related the varying distance to one of the two points between which the string vibrates - i.e. the fret where you tap.

I like this phenomenon a lot on my Grand with PASV-4 and I'm looking forward to experience it a bit more pronounced with the SG12 I'm planning to get next year.

It's much more pronounced, Per. The greater timbral variety of the PASV-4 on the short scale is one of the things I like best about the SG12.

I thought this line of thought was diverging quite a lot from the thoughts on all 4ths, so I started a general thread for discussion of the playing and sonic differences between 36"-scale and guitar scale Sticks:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3577

Just in case you want to get into it there...

Oops, didn't mean to derail the topic so much.

To rerail the topic, I think I've decided on the standard 4ths/5ths.
I really love the idea of perfectly symmetrical scales, and what I've heard about 4ths on the bass side sounds like it is better for about half of what I play. But Emmet has spent a lot longer thinking about the tuning than I have. There are some really nice features of the 5ths bass. And I really don't have any serious background on stringed instrument to fight against.
Somewhere on the forums, even Akin says something along the lines of thinking he probably should have started with bass 5ths
I also really feel like a difference in tuning on both sides will add to creativity. I think this is the thing that really made me decide.
I think both tunings are pretty elegant. But I think I'll go with 4ths/5ths this time. (Hopefully soon)

I started on 5ths in the bass and used that for a couple of years. I'm now on 4ths in the bass and it's better for me. However, I think I'll always recommend to new Stick players that they start on 5ths/4ths. This is how the Stick started and all the books use this tuning. You should have a reason to switch to 4ths that comes from a good understanding of 5ths and the music you want to play. Both tunings have strengths and weaknesses.

Enjoy your Stick and welcome!

-Eric

I just deleted the post that was here. I'm thinking of dropping out of the forum altogether because I tend to get very pompous when discussing the Stick...plus I should be practicing...suffice it to say, maybe for the last time, that I really like what mirrored 4ths can do...and that the SG is the best tapping instrument for reading classical keyboard music...and that counterpoint is cool.


Mad Monk.

Well, I did disagree with one of the statements in your last post (and it had nothing to do with instrument setup or tuning )..But hey, most of us get a bit preachy at times. Generally speaking, posts here are pretty interesting and we all learn something from each other. So don't drop out of the forum!

Cheers,
Andy

Hi Eric, Randy, et al,

There are varying degrees to which "reading" is important. I can only guess, but I'd say that 70-90% of all rock, funk and folk musicians never have to read anything. If Classical music is your bag, it's pretty essential to be able to read, unless you have an unbelievable ear for memorizing things. If you're a jazz musician, reading lead sheets is about as involved as it usually gets.

So there are a lot of people who only need to read "a little". Most of them need to read lead sheet melody and know how to translate chord symbols. since almost everyone is playing 4ths in the melody, this reading doesn't seem to be problematic in any way.

I'd agree with Randy to the extent that it's easier to translate what you see on the page to both hands if you have the same tuning in each hand, especially when you don't have a piece memorized, but once you learn how to play something, I'm not sure it makes that much difference, especially if you have developed good independence skills, and know how to exploit hand motion to play beyond scale-oriented hand position.

Clearly, players like Bob and Larry are able to navigate the 5ths tuning expertly, but I think they're usually playing from memory. They only live situation I've ever been in where I had to read while I was performing was the two times I performed Terry Reilly's "In C" This isn't really demanding reading, though, as it's just (mostly) simple little phrases.

I don't want to downplay what Randy's saying, though. He likes to be able to read counterpoint, and that's definitely easier with 4ths in both hands. Randy, I read the post you deleted, and it was generally thought-provoking (though I didn't agree with it), so please, hang out and speak your mind.

But like I said, the vast majority of musicians never have to read anything, so reading on it's own is only a small piece of the puzzle in figuring out what tuning to choose.

I have some (apparently!) simple beginner questions on this tuning. My initial intention is to mostly play single notes or very simple 2-3 voice chords on the bass side, from walking and 'figured' bass lines through to 'slap bass' style faster bass accompaniment, but on simple chord changes to accompany Major, Minor, and modal folk tunes - very often with 3rds unspecified, for an 'open' sound. So,

1) If I tune the bass side of my Stick in ascending 4ths low to high, does that mean I can read bass guitar lines from a stave with the same fingering, or standard bass guitar fingering patterns from tab books etc., providing I get a fix on where the Stick bass strings are pitched relative to the stave, and play them 'upside down' (i.e. middle of fingerboard low to side nearest me high)?

2) Will that work with an old non truss rod 10 string polycarbonate Stick? I think the fretboard on this Stick may have pulled up slightly at the ends, as action is currently a little higher in the middle.

3) If I do that, will I need a custom string set?

4) Any other recommendations, or comments on advantages and disadvantages for my purposes, and as a beginner? I's like to find a tuning system I can stick with, rather than attempt to change when I've been playing for a while.

Thanks, Max

Just chiming in with a related thought: Yesterday I had the idea to play Bach's Bourrée (Lute E minor) on my 5th/4th MR tuned grand. I found the score as PDF and recorded a couple of audio recordings of this piece to check it out in detail. It typically goes as two single-string melody lines (that imply chord changes almost like arepeggios) and I wanted to play one line on the bass side and the other on the melody side. But this seemed almost impossible on the bass side because these melody lines are running up and down the scale note for note with no big jumps (as the 5th tuning). I realized I would never be able to move my left hand quickly enough on the 5th tuned bass side in order to play those runs with notes of the correct duration.

Then I tried a "workaround" to transpose some bass side line notes one octave up or down and suddenly the fast scale runs of Bach became very easy to play. Not sure what J.S. would think about this approach, but at least I had almost a "peak experience" when finding out how smooth the 5th tuning turned out after the octave transposing trick. Without the octave transposition workaround a 4th/4th tuning would have been easier for this piece. I stick with 4th/5th though, as I find it a sonically wider palette.

If what you mean is that you want to play "inverted 4ths", then yes, it's possible. Though the intonation on a fixed-bridge Stick won't be perfect, it will be pretty close, especially if you start with a low E. If you start with a low B, the intonation will probably not be very close on the higher-pitched bass strings.

My contention has always been, if you don't care about playing chords, then this tuning is probably the most natural for tapping bass lines. Tapping requires a different set of skills than just fretting does, and the way inverted tunings fit the hand is very natural.

The string arrangement of ascending 4ths is an artifact of earlier instrument development, based on fretting notes with one hand and striking them with another. There's no reason at all to assume that ascending 4ths would be better, except that that's what you're used to if you've been a bass player.

Give it a try!