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 Hand position for modes 
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Post Hand position for modes
Hi all, just interested on peoples' take on the following....

My first instrument is trombone......when I am improvising over changes I 'think' scales, dorian/mixolydian/major etc etc, each with the root note being the note name of the scale.
I am slowly coming to terms with the new techniques associated with an instrument where all the notes are right there in front of you (or down to the left slightly anyway) and realize that hand position plays a massive part in the movement of your playing/phrasing etc. Obviously an unrelatable technique to trombone, where that concept would only exist in thought.

My question is, using say, the Dorian scale as an example, do you prefer to place your right hand index finger on the root note of the scale and let the hand falls into place accordingly, OR do you position your hand in the major scale position (of which the 2nd degree is the root of your Dorian scale) and therefore hold home base with your ring finger?

I figure with a 'major scale' hand position, all modes fall into it and you are essentially only learning/playing one scale, just emphasizing different notes accordingly to the chord underneath. By starting at the root with your index finger one would have to essentially learn new fingerings for each and every different scale/mode.....

I have a feeling the answer is going to be...... "if you want to be good, do both!"
but would be interested in hearing thoughts on the topic.


Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:36 pm
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Post Re: Hand position for modes
Even choices of how to play major scales have debates about them. In the end, for me, it comes down to how you want to transition your notes for overlapping tones. Since the Stick has next to no natural reverb, continuing notes can be helpful in giving a fuller sound. To do so, transitioning between strings allows for this continuity more completely than sliding or other techniques.

So from this standpoint you can transition after the first, second, third or fourth note of the major scale to the next string. With this in mind, which major scale do you mean? Your understanding of modes is correct. Your idea is perfectly valid to consider the appropriate "modulated" scale to accomplish your goal. Still, it isn't as simple as choosing just one. For simplicity's sake in the name of just starting, of course you can choose just one. This choice for many is the transition after the first two notes of the scale. Test out your theory and see how you like it.

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Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:46 pm
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Post Re: Hand position for modes
Actually the construction of the stick itself, being a keyless instrument, with an infinite progression of strings in 4ths makes it all much simpler than that. You can simply fly over any mode starting wherever you happen to be if you realize that, for example, in all modes for a major scale, the grafical design will keep forever like this: half tone, whole tone for 2 strings, whole tone half tone for 2 strings, whole tone whole tone for 3 strings and then back to the same. The pattern will maintain forever. The only thing you really need to figure out, and that will develop really fast with a little experience is, when you start with a note, any note, where exactly are you in that pattern. Try this: 1 - chose a random note on the right hand with a random chord on the left. Try a first scale step on the right (you'll know immediately if your right or wrong), slide a fret if you're wrong, then the same for the second step (half tone or whole tone, whatever you feel), from that point onwards you'll know the whole scale pattern for the entire instrument length and it's your hear that defines the mode that sounds better. I promise I t's so simple you feel like you're cheating. Let me know if it's not clear. And it works for any mode, any scale, in any key. in other words: take advantage of our brain being wired to be a grafic computer, and memorize the simpler visual pattern. All rest will come with time.
PS
A good exercise is playing a random chord on the left hand and a random note on the right and try to find the root by hear. It will take you 5 min to grasp the concept and you're done.
Cheers
Rodrigo


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Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:13 pm
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Post Re: Hand position for modes
Page 45!

SA


Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:31 pm
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Post Re: Hand position for modes
In a stick slump, I think this topic and you guys may have deslumped me if thats a word. But as bad luck or Murphys Law would have it I only scanned up to P 44 on the Mac Air, which is not much help in the middle of the ocean.. As homer would say Doohhh! :roll:
Plenty of other good info here about a topic I was recently thinking about. :D

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Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:56 pm
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Post Re: Hand position for modes
What Rodrigo said! :!:

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Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:54 am
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Post Re: Hand position for modes
A mode is just a displaced Major scale. If you learn the five major scale fingering, you also know all 7 modes in five positions. Same fingerings just different harmonic resolution points.
Pages 43-46.

Steve A


Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:08 am
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Post Re: Hand position for modes
bachdois wrote:
Actually the construction of the stick itself, being a keyless instrument, with an infinite progression of strings in 4ths makes it all much simpler than that. You can simply fly over any mode starting wherever you happen to be if you realize that, for example, in all modes for a major scale, the grafical design will keep forever like this: half tone, whole tone for 2 strings, whole tone half tone for 2 strings, whole tone whole tone for 3 strings and then back to the same. The pattern will maintain forever. The only thing you really need to figure out, and that will develop really fast with a little experience is, when you start with a note, any note, where exactly are you in that pattern. Try this: 1 - chose a random note on the right hand with a random chord on the left. Try a first scale step on the right (you'll know immediately if your right or wrong), slide a fret if you're wrong, then the same for the second step (half tone or whole tone, whatever you feel), from that point onwards you'll know the whole scale pattern for the entire instrument length and it's your hear that defines the mode that sounds better. I promise I t's so simple you feel like you're cheating. Let me know if it's not clear. And it works for any mode, any scale, in any key. in other words: take advantage of our brain being wired to be a grafic computer, and memorize the simpler visual pattern. All rest will come with time.
PS
A good exercise is playing a random chord on the left hand and a random note on the right and try to find the root by hear. It will take you 5 min to grasp the concept and you're done.
Cheers
Rodrigo


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Lee Vatip wrote:
A mode is just a displaced Major scale. If you learn the five major scale fingering, you also know all 7 modes in five positions. Same fingerings just different harmonic resolution points.
Pages 43-46.

Steve A
You guys are gonna make me get modes yet! I love how easy this transposition stuff works with Stick versus my native instrument, piano.

Also, either one of you guys, Steve or Rodrigo, would have been my hero back in music school. My composition teacher sucked as far as explaining this stuff to me (or I sucked as a student--or we both sucked. Point is, I struggled with this when I started music school).

Steve is a smart teacher and a credit to Steves everywhere!

By the way, Steve, completely off topic but those pics with Sting and Tony Levin and company from the show the other night were awesome! You rockstar!

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Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:40 am
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Post Re: Hand position for modes
I'm not a trombone player, even though I wrote for this instrument (mainly in the '80s because I was writing for Big Bands) and it's not easy to compare a trombone to a stick or guitar/bass concept...or any other strings intruments. I know the trombone is also a positioning instrument and some notes are not easy to play fast or to read because you have to judge if you need to play with your trombone slide. You have to judge (specially when you read) what is coming next. We have the same problem on strings instruments. Maybe we think differently though. You'll have to study more about strings instruments, where you have to pay attention about these related notes, where it's easier for you to continue your improvisation (because you were talking about this point in particular) and you'll find a new way to think about music. Each time we learn a new instrument that is far from our usual concept, we do have to make this effort to become friend with this new way to look at music concepts. I was in front of this when I switched the first time from guitar to piano. Or from guitar to cello...the first instrument is tuned in 4th and the second one in 5th. On the stick the left hand is tune like a reversed cello and the right hand is almost like a guitar. Just enjoy the way it is consctructed and step by step you'll reach exactly what you want to do...Just the fact that you are already a musician will help you.

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Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:19 am
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Post Re: Hand position for modes
I think Rodrigo' s example is the best. I wish I had a link to a diagram to visualize his concept. Steve's Adelson's concept is from his book is similar however I think it is less effective because it uses the "one finger per fret" rule which limits the whole step - whole step approach on three strings. It also creates only 5 shapes for each mode when the "stretch - shift" approach will yield 7 shapes one for beginning on each scale degree. I'm sure either Greg or Emmetts book must have this infinite pattern diagramed. Bob Culbertson uses Rodrigo's approach in his teaching.

Brett


Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:02 am
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