I'm curious, for those of you who have gone the mirrored 4ths route what the advantages are for you over 4ths/ 5ths? Here's my side of the story...

I was just getting to know Classic, when I got to thinking that I really like using 4ths in my playing. My riffs, solos etc etc. I also am very, very accustomed to scale patterns that use 3 notes per string. Also, I love guitar music. Steve Vai, Malmsteen, Satriani, Eric Johnson, Steve Morse, etc etc. I would like to leverage what I already know, chord patterns, intervals, neck layout, etc. Your listener doesn't give a rat's ass how you play stuff, as long as it sounded good... Plus, Greg's comments about a lot of Stickists not snagging 4ths and 7ths rang true...

So Kevin Chiasson kind of pushed me over the edge and I tuned my Stick to mirrored 4ths last week. No big whup, I have gone from MR to RMR to classic in the last year anyways. Might as well try it before I get too invested.... I was pretty nervous about it initially, but as it turns out, it makes sense to me and I was able to translate things I had learned in previous tunings pretty much in one night.

1) All of my scalar and chordal knowledge carries over. I know all of my notes, and where they are pretty much right off the bat. In 5ths you have to go with a 4 note per string approach, and while it covers a lot of territory, there is a huge range of notes that I just don't need right now. Accessibility is more important to me at this point.

2) I sightread as part of practicing independence. Sightreading is MUCH more intuitive in 4ths I find so far - for me, anyways. I read a lot with guitar, so it carries over. 4ths allows for complete note access in position.

3) EADGCF on the bass side, And BEADGC on the Melody side makes for a lot of relationships tha I am already aware of, ready to be accessed. 5ths tuning was killing me, not sure why but it just didn't resonate with me. I would have got it, but it would have taken a lot of wheel re-invention. Tons of practice, and I am not certain that the benefits would be worth the time investment. Especially when a simple tuning change gets me on my path.

Disadvantages... Yeah, there are a few bummers.

1) "You're gonna sound like a guitar player..." Wait. That is a good thing, I AM a guitar player, and now I can sound like two or more. If you hate guitar players, then this might be a problem I guess. Good thing the Stick still sounds like a Stick regardless of the tuning...

2) Loss of range. Yeah, there is a loss of those big interval skips, and wide interval voicing in chords, but I personally like closer voicings. I can still get 10ths if I want, and now a good 'ole 3rd is easy as pie.

3) Stick Repertoire. Learning a Greg Howard or Steve A. Tune is going to take some re-arrangement. Some of the instructional material no longer applies...

4) Looks like something you do only with 12 strings... Not really a viable option with 10's. Please correct me if I am wrong!


Ahh well. I'm cool with it. Thoughts?

I think if it resonates with you, go for it.... a couple years ago, while I was taking lessons with Trey Gunn, he talked me into tuning both sides in 5th's.... The Stick really opened up for me in a lot of ways...... I played with it like that for a bit, but eventually realized that it would not serve me with the music I was wanting to play (World Fusion/Jazz Fusion) SO.... I tuned to Classic and have gone back and forth between MR and Classic, finally settling on Classic. Greg is my main teacher with supplements from Trey from time to time..... You seem to know your way around the board quite well... good luck!!

Thanks, man. I guess that my biggest concern is that although this tuning is one that I seem to "get", and things are moving fast, I wonder what kind of havoc it would wreak on possible instructors...? I guess it really puts the onus on me to "know the neck" and be able to come up with viable solutions/workarounds for what the dudes are trying to teach...

I am gonna sound stupid, I know it but Trey Gunn... Is he a King Crimson guy? The name rings a bell but I am not familiar... lol

Scott, just looking at your pro's and con's points, the points against seem pretty weak tea, and the positives seem to be tremendous advantages.

In my opinion, your only real concern against seems to be loss of range, versus a supreme shredding mastery of the scales and intervals thanks to your Lord of Guitar skills. Add in sightreading, which is sufficient and convincing in its own right, and I'd say welcome to the land of fourths.

It's of course a personal relationship that one has with the Stick, owing to each of our own backgrounds. I never really learned fourths on a bass guitar anyway and used to just play bass on keys, so Stick bass in fifths is pretty cool to me. But I haven't tried Stick bass in fourths, so maybe I'd like that too! Whenever I get that Wenge Grand (next year....sigh), that'd be a good time to get it in mirrored fourths and give it a try.

I should try Steve B's (MichNS) NS/Stick sometime (for the fourths at least), and/or if anyone here in Michigan's got a Stick tuned mirrored fourths, I'd love to try it/hear it--and you on it! (Hypothetical awesome person you!)

Sounds like nothing but win for you Scott! Rock it out!

Adds: I have a left-handed bass guitar (4-string) that I bought from a co-worker and put in a corner as gear decor more than anything. I'm going to get it out, flip it over (I'm right-handed), and give it a whirl for a bit: instant mirrored fourths on bass!

I've been heavily contemplating making the switch to 4ths. My Railboard is RMR while my Padauk is DMR. The only thing holding me back is how I would execute bass octaves. RMR has them two frets/strings apart, reciprocal to the melody side. DMR has octaves one fret apart on strings 6/7. The only way I could think to do it with 4ths is mirroring the melody side which is proving extremely uncomfortable. I'd love any pointers for it since octaves are a fundamental aspect of my bass playing.

Octaves aren't too bad. It takes a bit of getting used to, but if you already play bass it is the same on the bass side of the Stick in Mirrored, only "backwards"... Or "mirrored"...

--------5-------
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--------7--------
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Lotsa cool stuff in mirrored...

This tune captures a lot of the reasons why I went with mirrored 4ths when I got a Grand Stick in 2004 - the ability to adapt a lot of the acoustic guitar and bass techniques I had been learning from some of my big music influences. I love Ian Anderson's (Jethro Tull) acoustic guitar style, the way he fills in between chords with little bass and melodic lines, and with the mirrored 4ths I could do a lot of this with one hand - you can easily hold down some chord tones while adding some additional details with other fingers, both tapped notes and pull offs - the scale tones lie easily within reach and patterns translate more directly from other 4ths instruments. It's also easy to integrate those close-voiced sounding chords (like of course sus2). It's like being able to play a hybrid of acoustic guitar and bass with one hand

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTTRnx9-bYI[/youtube]

Dammit, Rob. Your playing is soooo good! I have a pretty "Hack and slash" version of "One Cloud"... Your playing is very inspiring, man... When do we get to hear some new stuff?

(Yes, I'm going to steal it all...)

I understand HOW to do it (as I explained in my post). My problem is actually doing them. I find it far less ergonomic than RMR or DMR and it definitely impacts my carpal tunnel. I've been contemplating alternate 4ths tunings to give me easier octaves on strings 6 and 7, but I don't want to spend the next several weeks retuning and reintonating to try different variations. I'm hoping to find the solutions to my problems before I commit to 4ths (and probably sell my brand new, plum Railboard).

Ahhh I see, sorry! Didn't mean to offend! Some stuff in 4ths tuning is harder, it just is; But something to consider before you change ANYTHING, is that Greg Howard is using less and less fingers on the bass side, and achieves everything he needs to do with hand movement.

So technically, you could just use one finger and a percussive hit in between to get the to get the groove and hit the notes you want?