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 Horizontal Versus Vertical Stick Technique 
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Post Re: Horizontal Versus Vertical Stick Technique
lminor7 wrote:
Oh Hey, a great big thanks to paigan0 for the original post about the difficulties associated with playing the stick vertically instead of horizontally.
I realize this post was several years ago and I intend to read up on your progress.
Essentially, your post was a much more articulate version of how I felt about the stick several weeks after receiving it. The only difference is with my vision. I am extremely far sighted, have a considerable astigmatism, and am afflicted with a condition which makes it almost impossible to 'track' a string, that is, when I play a low note on a particular string it's almost impossible to find and play that same string higher up on the fret board.

I cannot tell you how frustrating this is. It's also difficult to read music because the astigmatism makes the horizontal and vertical lines on the page strobe and difficult to parse.

I thought there was suddenly something wrong with my left pinkie because it felt so weak on the stick. I can produce much more power on the piano. Like you, I've been playing for many decades and it's a bitch wrapping my head around this 'new' way of playing on a stringed instrument whose tuning would seem just fine to Wrong Way Corrigan.

As much as I tried (though I purchased my grand stick a few years ago, my frustration level caused me to stop playing it till a very short time ago, I was either buzzing or misjudging the distance to the fret I wanted to play, and most often even if I'd play the correct fret, it would be on the wrong string!!
Makes me crazy :o

Now, with the Interlochen workshop coming up, I decided to practice as much as I am able and hopefully regain some of the few good habits I picked up thanks to the videos, books, and Greg via Skype and in person. Greg, You Da Man :) and when I play a video after trying in vain to explain to someone what a Chapman Stick is, it's usually one of yours or Bob's.

I don't know what else to say except if anyone knows of some 'trick' to help me visually track a string down the fret board I'd be in your debt.
My wife suggested I used different colored strings and I think that's a possible solution. IF colored strings are available. I'd hate to draw colored lines all up and down my beautiful fret board. Besides, I don't have enough crayons.

Now that I have vented and cried out for help, I feel a bit better and less solitary in my frustrated attempts at the instrument. If I were a driver, I'd probably be the guy who won't want to ask for directions...

Thanks again for the post which made me feel less alone and I suspect you stuck with the traditional playing position. I hate that feeling of "Drat, I will NEVER be able to do this!"

Maybe I will ;)
Cheers

lminor7 (what was your name again, if you don't mind me asking? Secret identities are okay, too!),

Howdy! I'll be at Interlochen, too, so we'll be able to meet in person.

I got my GMAIL notification that someone had posted on this old thread, and I popped by to get a blast from memory past.

Short version of my story: I got progressive lenses, put my face right near the Sticks, and don't always need to see what I'm doing anyway.

Longer version: I wrestled with playing on my lap, and I daresay that I can rock some stuff out that way. I even made a couple of videos of plunking around that way. In an alternate universe somewhere, there's a Steve who stuck with this lap method and said "Screw you, Stickists, with your horizontal prejudices!" and continued to play that way. But I quickly got used to vertical style and now that seems the "normal" way of playing.

But what really helped me was the "DBro holder" that lets me play sitting down with the Stick(s) near my face. I don't know if that helps your visual situation. But that and progressive lenses fixed my vision issues.

My left hand pinky is stronger than my right hand pinky (octave chords on the bass in piano require that pinky and thumb combo), which on my right hand is STILL pretty weak. But I've seen and made a lot of progress in getting that pinky stronger. I wrote a song (the one below, actually!) that couldn't be played without using lots of right hand pinky, so that has helped a lot. It'll come, if you work it.

lminor7 wrote:
Thanks again for the post which made me feel less alone and I suspect you stuck with the traditional playing position. I hate that feeling of "Drat, I will NEVER be able to do this!"

Maybe I will
Cheers

You will SO be able to do this, if you just Stick with it! :ugeek: Here's me at day 600 or so on my Sticks (I added two more, a Railboard and an NS/Stick!). This is me somewhat now, with whatever progress I've made so far, and pretty much all vertical these days:
https://youtu.be/OLlFMm2vQM0

https://soundcloud.com/stephen-sink-1/the-purpling-perc

Cheers! See you an Interlochen and around here!

Adds: Hi, Harry! I forgot that you already told us that!

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Sapphire Railboard, #6763, MR
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http://soundcloud.com/stephen-sink-1
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-RDlN ... Ez0hN49_Qg


Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:01 am
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Post Re: Horizontal Versus Vertical Stick Technique
Lol I can relate when it comes to the frustrating aspect of the instrument. Some folks seem to pick it up easily, and are instantly able to play freely it seems... Lol me personally, I have had to work very hard for any bit of progress I have made. You can do it, dude! You might have to find your own way, but you can do it. Lol If I could make progress, anyone can.

Have you considered violin marking tape at certain key notes just to use a a reference marker? Frowned upon perhaps, but I found it a bit helpful. I also tried quite a variety of tunings before settling on one that seemed the most intuitive (to me)

Anyways, good luck dude!

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Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:21 am
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Post Re: Horizontal Versus Vertical Stick Technique
One alternative, play blind. "Obey the force." It's a different sensation. Your hands have to see the fretboard and your forearms have to measure it.

If you can't commit to blind playing, at least write a song for that "mode". The garden might just grow into a forest. You'd improvise by the interval, playing off of what you've just played, listening to yourself, feeling the spaces instead of discreet notes (much like non-scripted speech).

I often refer to "downhand" versus "uphand". On Stick, down is up (wouldn't you know it). The terms I use for teaching relate to higher pitched frets (uphand toward the pinky) versus lower pitched frets (downhand toward the forefinger). On Stick, the fingers of both hands match (nice confluence of design and technique).

On The Stick melody side with its uniform 4ths tuning, there are two and only two local fingerings for any interval. From a downhand note, you ascend a minor 2nd (a half step) with the next finger uphand at the next higher fret. From an uphand note, the same interval is at the next higher string with the forefinger.

To ascend a major 3rd in the melody, you either go from the downhand note up four frets in pitch on the same string, or from the uphand position you move to the next higher string one fret down in pitch.

Same for all intervals, two and only two good moves, depending on which half of your hand is active at the time. Then, from a given scale or mode, stretch your fingers uphand if your chord progression introduces sharp notes, or stretch them downhand if the progression moves flat. How # or how b? Your ears and intuition act as the editor.

Call this song "Blind Luck" and see if you can get on a roll.


Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:30 pm
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Post Re: Horizontal Versus Vertical Stick Technique
For a while I was teaching a blind student , to whom I suggested putting tape on the back of the instrument, behind frets 2, 5, 7, 10 and 12. This seemed to make a big difference in her ability to keep track of where she was.

The tape was actually just "south" of the fret, which gave her the right physical reference point to end up on the "sweet spot", tapping just behind the fret.

Something to try?

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Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:34 pm
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Post Re: Horizontal Versus Vertical Stick Technique
greg wrote:
For a while I was teaching a blind student , to whom I suggested putting tape on the back of the instrument, behind frets 2, 5, 7, 10 and 12. This seemed to make a big difference in her ability to keep track of where she was.

The tape was actually just "south" of the fret, which gave her the right physical reference point to end up on the "sweet spot", tapping just behind the fret.

Something to try?
OMG. That's quite mind-blowing, actually. What an awesome idea! Your thumb can feel the tape right "below" each fret! From the other side.

I don't need it anymore, but this would have really worked well when I started!

Image

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Steve Sink, Laser Fractals
Rosewood 10-string, #5989, M4s
Sapphire Railboard, #6763, MR
Wenge-on-Wenge NS/Stick, #170130, Bass 4ths
http://soundcloud.com/stephen-sink-1
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-RDlN ... Ez0hN49_Qg


Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:38 pm
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Post Re: Horizontal Versus Vertical Stick Technique
greg wrote:
For a while I was teaching a blind student , to whom I suggested putting tape on the back of the instrument, behind frets 2, 5, 7, 10 and 12. This seemed to make a big difference in her ability to keep track of where she was.

The tape was actually just "south" of the fret, which gave her the right physical reference point to end up on the "sweet spot", tapping just behind the fret.

Something to try?


This is an amazing idea, actually. I don't really need those kind of references too much anymore, but what an excellent concept. Smart, I like it.

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Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:53 pm
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Post Re: Horizontal Versus Vertical Stick Technique
Hey paigan0,

So sometimes I can seem aloof or ungrateful or uninterested. None of that is true here. I didn't acknowledge the contributions by the folks who answered your post and were obviously quite helpful in their comments. The same is true of the nice people who shared their experiences and opinions after my post.
I want to thank you all for the positive input and I WILL put your suggestions to good use!
To paraphrase someone's post that I can't find right now, if he (that's you) can do it, then I (that's me) can do it!
I started watching youtube tutorials by Bob Culbertson and Greg Howard. Except for the almost completely different styles and pinkie use, or lack thereof, I'm getting pretty psyched over learning the stick for real this time.
And a special note to Greg; the tape in back of the stick is a fantastic idea. I see that few of the folks here need such a thing anymore but I DO. Tomorrow Never Knows What Fate Will Befall My Great Great Grand Stick ;)

I will arrive at Interlochen with much unnecessary paraphernalia. Stuff I bought thinking it would help me play better. Go figure...

Oh and Steve, there's no secret identities here in lovely Queens NY (I emigrated from The Bronx) and I'm not really Tony Levin pretending to be a noob, though I did almost get the chance to play in the same band as he. Just one little snag; Peter Gabriel picked someone else to be his keyboard player. Ostensibly, because Timmy doubled on Sax. (lame :-)

My name is Harry. I just use the Lminor7 because I co-wrote a song by that name many years ago. Originally it was just Lminor, but as time went by I added the dominant 7th.

But I digress and ramble.
Thanks to all for your help!
Oh and B sharp, just so you know, my wife happens to always yawn in B natural. Weird hearing a monotone yawn...

C ya at Interlochen!
Harry


Last edited by lminor7 on Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:25 pm
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Post Re: Horizontal Versus Vertical Stick Technique
To paigan0
Hey Steve
I enjoyed your duet very much! So that's an NS Stick in action.
I'm afraid I wrote a little melody over part of the piece. Don't worry though, I cannot play it. It's cool too; it has modes and dominant 7ths and 9ths and stuff. I will hopefully audition it for you at Interlochen :idea:

Hope you like it, and if you don't it's okay too. I'm a NOOOOb :!:

Cheers,
Harry


Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:10 pm
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Post Re: Horizontal Versus Vertical Stick Technique
paigan0 wrote:
greg wrote:
For a while I was teaching a blind student , to whom I suggested putting tape on the back of the instrument, behind frets 2, 5, 7, 10 and 12. This seemed to make a big difference in her ability to keep track of where she was.

The tape was actually just "south" of the fret, which gave her the right physical reference point to end up on the "sweet spot", tapping just behind the fret.

Something to try?
OMG. That's quite mind-blowing, actually. What an awesome idea! Your thumb can feel the tape right "below" each fret! From the other side.

I don't need it anymore, but this would have really worked well when I started!

Image

Hi Steve and Scott,

Glad you guys like the idea. Teaching is half inspiration and half-trouble-shooting. I spend much of my time in initial lessons dealing with logistical issues, including what physical positioning will work best for a given player's body type and other issues.

Tactile feedback is something you come to enjoy as a keyboardist (black and white keys). We have some, in the form of string thickness and how open your hand is over the board, but it's subtler. In that way, and in the way geometry works on the board The Stick is a fairly visual instrument.

One of the`things I don't like about the horizontal approach to Stick playing is that the hands feel completely different (from each other), and you lose the parallel correspondence of hand motion and pitch along the string. but this inverse relationship for the hands is something keyboardists have contended fine with for centuries, so I guess it's just a question of getting used to it.

I love the way The Stick feels in my hands, it feels much more "connected" than keyboards do.

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Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:08 am
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Post Re: Horizontal Versus Vertical Stick Technique
greg wrote:
One of the`things I don't like about the horizontal approach to Stick playing is that the hands feel completely different (from each other), and you lose the parallel correspondence of hand motion and pitch along the string. but this inverse relationship for the hands is something keyboardists have contended fine with for centuries, so I guess it's just a question of getting used to it.

I love the way The Stick feels in my hands, it feels much more "connected" than keyboards do.


Greg, that's an excellent point that I would not have appreciated fully when I first started out with the Sticking. As a keyboardist for some 30 years, I am used to that inverse relationship with the hands (but that doesn't mean I like it!), but being a Stickist now for 1 year and 3/4s, I really appreciate that the two hands have the same fingering--particularly in a 4ths tuning on both sides (mirrored or straight).

I would not have appreciated the wondrous beauty that is the exact fingering in either hand when playing Stick vertically when I started playing, but it is a very good point.

The counter to that excellent point would be that horizontal playing makes it much easier to play using the thumbs, and that the pinky has more power using a gravity assist. And there's a few other pluses--and minuses--that I won't get into, like vision (a plus for looking down and seeing the whole fretboard in one glance laid out horizontally).

But I think that the simultaneous fingering goes a long way to making that "connected" feeling, and holding a Stick is very much more personal and "hands on" than sitting in front of a piano (and believe me, I've got hands all over those keys! But that piano ain't moving no where!).

I also know that one can do anything that one would want to do in either playing style (hypothetically). Unless I discover a technique that can only be done playing LapStick (that's what I'll call it). In which case, that's an adjustment that I can somewhat easily make.

But I'm down with vertical. Or up with it. Up and down with it--just not sideways anymore. Much. :mrgreen:

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Steve Sink, Laser Fractals
Rosewood 10-string, #5989, M4s
Sapphire Railboard, #6763, MR
Wenge-on-Wenge NS/Stick, #170130, Bass 4ths
http://soundcloud.com/stephen-sink-1
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-RDlN ... Ez0hN49_Qg


Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:46 am
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