Oceans asked me to put up a music theory thread. I studied towards a masters degree in music composition so I know a thing or two. Don't know what people would like to go over.

I might suggest a program in this order. Let me know where you'd like to jump in.

intervals
triads
seventh chords
diatonic scales
pentatonics
modes
symmetrical scales
esoteric modes
chord progressions
bitonal application of scales/modes to chords
chord alterations
chord substitutions
atonal chord progressions

Well done! Looks like a complete listing, as far as I can tell. An interesting approach for the discussion would be to hear people's personal strategies for *what* out of all this one prefers to use in order to achieve some particular expressions.

Not sure I understand that. Is this what we also call "different levels of out playing" (melody following a scale where more or less notes fall outside the root key scale)?

Hooray! Thanks Tatsu. I just want to make sure we really apply the theory to the stick in 5ths and 4ths. That would be a more universal/helpful thing in my opinion. So like for chord progressions, we just gotta make sure that the shapes are not totally insane finger stretches(just an example). It looks like you know your stuff here so this should be great.

I am working on trying to write a progression in melodic minor. I really want to mazimize the tonal feeling/vibe of this harmony. I want to have the left hand chords played at once and not arppegiated. ITs kinda hard to make the chord stabs with some of the shapes. Anyway I want to let the l.h chords to ring out while I make up melodies. A simple jazz l.h with more impressive r.h. Hope that makes sense. I know for example I could just do a minor chord in l.h and add the color tones with the r.h but Im looking for another way. So Bascially I want to learn about cool, non poppy chord progressions. In a kinda jazz/fusion style.

And finally what are the modes or chords for diminished?! I know its all syymmetrical and repeating but I know there is more to it than that. Can we throw some altered dominants in there? and on what note of the scale?

THAKNS

What I meant by the bitonal aspects of chords and melody is, for example, when you're on the vi-7 chord in major but you play a dorian scale or when you're on the IDom7 chord and play the minor pentatonic, dorian or bebop scale not the mixolydian.

Oceans,
We'll talk about chord progressions in general and not focus on voicings so much just yet.

As far as progressions go I got some great advice that goes like this.
Harmonic progressions can be categorized into two kinds; static and dynamic.

Dynamic harmony occurs when chords move down a fourth or up a fifth and when chords move down a third.

Static harmony is when chords progress scale-wise or when 2 chords rock back and fourth.

Dynamic harmony should occur at the end of sections unless a series of chords move down a fourth/up a fifth throughout the section.

If you keep to these progressions it helps a lot to keep chords from aimlessly wandering.

Your Melodic Minor tune is a good place to begin for modal harmonies beyond the maj/min. My tune "The Akash" is in the LydianDominant mode of the melodic minor. I'm scared of losing all I've typed so I'll Submit this and continue the same train of thought in my subsequent post.

So, as far as what to do with the chords in your progressions it seems to me it's a good idea to follow the rule for comping with other people which is Don't play minor chords with flat nine, or dominant chords with the sharp four or flat five unless everyone in the band has been told when and where those are going to be played. Other than that, every other alteration is possible but in jazz they're not usually in the "head" unless they're part of the harmonic minor progression.

Possible Alterations
Major7 b9, #9, #11, b13 Or
MinMaj7 #9, #11, Or
Dom b9, #9, b13.

It's also possible to ocassionally change major chords to minor.

Don't forget that it's possible to play the flat nine and the natural nine simultaneously as just one example, or the flat five and the natural five simultaneously, or the flat thirteen and natural thirteen simultaneously. Many people feel the 4 in major is too dissonant and either leave it out or make it sharp. I'm not one of those people.

In fusion, the rule for leaving the head unaltered is often ignored and made an essential part of the tune. I haven't been doing that in my own composing though.

As far as the harmonizing the diminished scale, I only know the basic harmonization and don't know of songs composed exclusively with it.

Lastly, Fusion ala Allan Holdsworth doesn't have songs based on common modes. More likely are what one writer has called Esoteric modes which are not found even in the normal melodic or harmonic minor scales. They are:
Melodic minor #4
Locrian b4
Melodic Minor b2b5
Aeolian#4
Melodic minor b2#4
melodic minor b2
double harmonic major #4
Dorian #5
Lydian #5
Mixolydian #5
Ionian b6
Lydian Dominant #5
Melodic Minor #5
Phrygian#5natural6/Dorian b2#5
Lydian Dominant b6
Lydian b2
Dorian#4/ 4th mode harmonic minor
Ionianb5/ 3rd mode harmonic minor
Mixolydian b5
Other modes of harmonic minor

The next place to go is Atonal progressions which I'll have to scan in my notebook and post here some time later. I've got a trip to the U.S. coming up so it will be a while before I'll be able to do that but if you're interested, you can research it yourself on the net.

Thank you, Tatsu, for taking the time to post this highly interesting things!

Tatsu,

You should check out Emmett's Offset Modal System:

http://www.stick.com/articles/offsetmodal/

Because of the neutral tuning and consistent interval patterns, The Stick is an excellent vehicle for scale alterations. This is particularly true if you use 3-finger melody as the mechanics of the new mode do not change, only the physical location of the notes. It's still the same 3 fingers per string. Very fast and very fluid.

There's a lot of material on modes and how to learn the key as a whole, rather than just individual scales in my book and DVD.

Looking forward to more on the subject from you.

Do I call you Per?

I forgot to mention that all the "Violinish" tunes I posted over in Showcase were composed using the Static and Dynamic harmonic approach which would allow you to evaluate how effective it is when chords move in that manner. My other "Guitaristic" tunes were composed using much of what Chick Corea does, such as progressions of limited transposition, which is a whole other ball of wax involving temporary changes of tonal center.

Earlier I said that static progressions move scale-wise but I left out that the scale you might use could be whole tone, half-whole, chromatic or whatever. I noticed that William Russo in his book Jazz Composition and Orchestration says that when you have chords progressing which are all of the same quality, such as all major, it's best if they move in a linear fashion. So, it's possible to make them move chromatically, diatonically or whatever.

There ARE other progressions you might want to use besides the static dynamic one's outlined previously. The IV chord moving to I is considered a retrogression in classical music but it's use is essential in Blues. This being the postmodern era, and very postmodern music we're discussing, it's entirely possible to use it. But I suggest leaving it out for now if discussing modal music. If it's not in a Blues work, It's normally reserved for short pieces.