One quick question....

Am I a "fanboy"? If not, could you please specify the ones who are.....

Thank you.

Sincerely//Jan

Lots of interesting and some not so interesting comments on this thread.

Not having contributed to this discussion so far, I'd like to say a few things if I may.

It's a free forum
TT is free to advertise here, and we're free to respond.  I'd like to see the responses deal more with the substance of what's being offered, but I'm not in charge so I can only sit back and take it all in.

Harder to fool people in the video age
In his first post LoopSationZebra (Scott) actually makes some points, though I could do without the language and the attitude.

As more and more videos of people actually making music get out there, it's pretty clear whose instrument works well and whose instrument isn't exactly happening. I think people are indeed better educated all the time concerning tapping and Free Hands, so I'm optomistic about people finding valid info to help them realize what's bogus and what's not. This is in part because of forums like this one keeping it positive and informative (most of the time). People do learn a lot about how to play here (TT#2 notwithstanding), so I look forward to this little spate of negativity subsiding so we can get back to the music.

I don't believe that a knockoff that's hard to play would benefit anyone (except the seller of course), so perhaps Scott would be willing to consider that this is a different case than most, a bit different than a computer, phone or handbag. Perhaps someone can point me to a really skilled player who learned how to play on one of the cheaper knockoffs (they've been around for years after all).

Crossed hands = maximum musical potential
If TT wants to try to sell people a tapping instrument that isn't really suited to "crossed" playing, let him try.  Considering that the vast majority of tapping musicians on many different makes of instruments play "crossed," including most of the best players, it's a tough sell at best.  "Crossed" is not simply a function of how the tuning is laid out, it's a physical sensation of power and flow in making music. This is something I think TT still doesn't understand, because he's never really learned how to play beyond the most basic level.  Crossing over is about maximizing each hand's opportunities as each hand can play all the strings.  Just watch Bob or Steve or Emmett, you'll see what I mean.

Please note, I realize there are great players who play uncrossed. This is in no way a slap at their music or artistry (though I do sometimes imagine what they could do playing crossed...)

Designing to support the playing method
As TT's latest looks more like The Stick the differences between him and Emmett just become more apparent.  Emmett is building instruments to fit a playing method, making sure that they support that method as well as possible, and in an uncompromising way.  Emmett's design and belt-hook and strap, makes equal access to the whole fretboard for both hands quite easy.  You can play it crossed or uncrossed, tune it any way you like, set it up perfectly.

Based on what I've seen from this latest effort of TT's, the design of the instrument dictates the playing parameters to the player.  It's too wide to be played crossed comfortably, it has limited range because it has so few frets, it has no inlays on the fretboard, it has no adjustable truss or nut.

These are the kinds of things people need to know. 

God - you know what's funny about this latest product announcement from Traktor?

I think it's the first one I have ever seen where he didn't somehow try to mooch off SE or lie about SE's products, prices, or methods...

And the poor little troll still gets ragged on.

oh well.

Randy

I replied forthrightly to LSZ's foul mouthed and abusive post, then he comes back refuting me with reasonable, almost professional tones and expects us all to take his change of mood in stride - such manipulations!

I'd rather not see the "action meter" rise any higher on this thread about Zen Tapper musical instrument marketing, and will instead take it to an appropriately broader subject title, which I'll simply call "Cheap Thrills" (watch for it).

LSZ, you're welcome to follow me there if you want. Otherwise, I'll pursue my own train of thought and that's where I'll be responding.

Lest best be messed, Emmett.

Greg,

Although I agree with most of your post, there might be other explanations for a couple of things:


Most of the really skilled players have been playing for more than 20 years, so it's normal that they started with the Stick; it was the only dedicated tapping instrument at that time (well I guess Dave Bunker was doing his instruments back then but the playing method is different, so I'll leave it out of the discussion). Some of these great musicians decided at one point to play another instrument, and I guess they had a valid personal reason; tone, ergonomics, look, sponsoring, who knows... They still wonderful talented artists, and the key words here are talent & art.
I'm sure that Greg will be far more musical after 30 mins with my uncrossed parallel 4ths Warr than I will ever be; the instrument is just a small part of the equation, the most important thing is the musician who makes it sound.
I will not give names (I don't want to forget anyone), I'm sure that you will find good examples of good musicians playing Megatar, Warr or custom instruments.


The same argument applies here, most of them started with Classic 5th/4th crossed tuning but then they found good reasons to change. It depends on the kind of music they play, their previous experience and how their brains are wired. Some players did 'click' and their music exploded when they tried other tuning; I think of Rob Martino for instance (please Rob correct me if I got it wrong).

And now back to the original subject, apriori I believe that the zentapper is not worth it's price. The TapLadder is a wonderful concept if you manage to sell it for a few hundred dollars (that was RJ's original goal). Maybe after listening / seeing / trying one, I will be surprised and change my mind. For now if you only have 1200$ to spend get a Ziggy which is a wonderful entry level instrument for that price.

Cheers, Daniel.

LSZ: It's petty and stupid and the stuff of bitchy little girls.


That would be a fair description of this thread, it seems to me.

Exactly.
Sorry for keeping this thread up again, I just cannot understand (oh though I can guess) why TT's instruments are overpriced like this. Well I'm not sure if it is ok to compare these... But the Stick has the original idea, original hardware and electronics, etc; while Megatar is just a piece of wood with strings and some generic guitar/bass hardware from the nearest music store.

I'm not sure why Stick players felt the need to instigate the hostility with insults and jokes- Traktor made an announcement, and others started the fight. I don't find LoopStationZebra's points compelling (or tone appropriate) either but I'd have to say I'm disappointed that the announcement was followed by Stick folks throwing a bunch of tomatoes, setting the snowball in motion- once things heat up then misinterpretations of intent and clouded judgement take over and nothing gets resolved.

There are times where it's felt necessary to call out Traktor on inappropriate or inaccurate advertising but in this case he simply posted an announcement in an appropriately labeled forum (Teflon instruments), and I did not see any use of overt anti-Stick propaganda to advertise the instrument (well, apart from "touchstyle" and "unusual inverted-fifths" kinds of terms and videos that have a way of implying Emmett's Free Hands method is some kind of offshoot of the tapping world rather than the basis of these particular instruments, but that's hardly a new TT marketing approach). And now he's getting a large amount of "publicity". Having concern about the price or how it stemmed from RJ's original design is one thing but simply hurling insults because you don't like Traktor or his instruments seems childish and reflects badly on Stick players (and leads to the "fanboy" accusation, whether it's accurate or not).

I empathize with Emmett as I do agree that there does seem to be an effort by some to disparage him and minimize his contributions to the music world. The more I develop as a player the more I appreciate the innovation and insight that has gone into the Stick, and it's clear that "competitor" instruments are based on Emmett's particular method (even if it's true they have no obligation to mention it's origin). I'm also confident saying that it would be far more difficult to realize my music on another instrument, given how the particular design and sound are optimized for the techniques I'm using. It seems the best way to recognize and show respect for the origin of the method is through my own (and other Stick player's) music and interactions with the people I come across online every day and at gigs. If some public statement by a competitor seems wrong or inappropriate then sure, it can be called out for what it is, but this didn't seem to be one of those moments.

My response to the announcement would simply have been to ignore it. I thought RJ's original home built design was clever, but I wouldn't have interest in this version. Any potential ZenTapper's music will be validation of whether it's a worthy/well designed instrument or not. Let's just wait for the music and videos...

Well said Rob!

How did I know this would become a viral thing, inevitably making its way to this forum? I don't think it warrants much anger, fanfare or smearage. Here is my opinion, an excerpt from my post at Tappistry:

Hello again, Ernie!

In theory, I agree with you. And, of course, RJ is indeed a shining example of positivity and thoughtfulness. However, Traktor is just doing what Traktor does best; he is a businessman through and through. And his decision to sell the ZT for over a grand has left RJ's Tapladder intact as a viable and affordable alternative to pricey instruments.

So, in essence, nothing has tarnished or altered RJ's brilliant creation in any way. It resembles the tapladder in some ways, just as some tap instruments resemble sticks in some ways.

Now, if Traktor manages to patent the idea of assembling a tap guitar from inexpensive parts purchased at the hardware store, I'd be pretty upset. That doesn't seem to be Traktor's MO, so I look at the ZT as just another tapper on the market... one that APPEARS as if it is made from inexpensive parts purchased at the hardware store, but in fact costs $1200.

That's MY opinion.

Now, if we could just get Rob back here on the forum...

Kev

Emmett,

I'm truly sorry that you have to deal with this kind of nonsense. As one who once played the Stick and who appreciates your innovation, I think you deserve better.

K