This week's video is a discussion about the minor scale and its 2 variations; the harmonic and melodic minor scales. As usual, there are exercises and more at http://www.patreon.com/jgoldbergmusic. Enjoy!

Cool video! I looooove those 3 tonalities...

An interesting thing occurs with 145 chord progressions (And it kinda jives with your video, so I thought I'd post this) and the harmonic frameworks provided from simple structures;

From 'C' Root
Imaj ivmaj Vmaj CEG FAC GBD = CDEFGAB (C Major Scale)
Imin ivmin Vmin CEbG FAbC GBbD = CDEbFGAbBb (C Natural Minor Scale)
Imin ivmin Vmaj CEbG FAbC GBD = CDEbFGAbB (C Harmonic Minor Scale)
Imin ivmaj Vmaj CEbG FAC GBD = CDEbFGAB (C Melodic Minor Scale)

Technically, you could probably not ever learn a scale fingering, and simply draw from chord shapes this way and have those tonalities at your disposal. Y'know, extended triads and all that fun stuff... And seeing as how the triad shapes are pretty consistent on the Stick, one could get pretty crazy without having to get too "Scaley". I generally prefer to play melodic minor as a "Jazz minor" and just use it, and it's respective modes as a consistent pool of notes

Of course, all of those scale fingerings are super useful too, but it's helpful to "learn" and "think" of the same stuff in different contexts too. Just an opinion, I hope it's ok that I posted this...

Again, cool video!

Scott, this is a great observation. This exact reason is likely at least partly why I IV V progressions are just so strong sounding. I'm sure exploring the possibilities of 1, 4 and 5 triads superimposed over various chords will provide a great wealth of information as well as some pretty interesting sounds.

I do think it would be an incomplete starting place, however, as it prevents the student from seeing the bigger picture relationship of the whole scale, as well as leaving out the 2, 3, 6 and 7 chords altogether without going in and manipulating the 1-4-5 formula to generate the desired effects.

With the context of scale knowledge, including diatonic chords and arpeggios to bolster it, it seems like you could get really deep with just that idea. Interesting extended possibilities come to mind as I think of playing with the 1, 4 and 5 off of whatever chord you happen to land on, regardless of diatonicism.

As for the melodic minor scale just being a "jazzy" standalone scale, I agree. It depends on the flavor you're going for. I just wanted to be sure to give historical context as well.

Well, I do agree that it might not be the best starting point, but without a doubt it is a piece of the puzzle. 145 is such a strong harmonic progression throughout history, so it is definitely worthwhile to study it a bit. I see so many guitarists who can play some scales, but have no clue as to what they are played over, or how the notes interlock...

145 triads and triad arps in nearest inversion/all inversions were part of the curriculum in second year music school, we had to do all kinds of stuff with it like being able to play it on single strings, all 12 keys, etc. Of course, this is after going through Will Leavitt's Books 1, 2 and 3.

Another thing to consider, is the extensions of the foundational harmony. C Harmonic Minor, and C Melodic Minor share the same 1 chord if you are going for 7ths; Cmin/Maj7. However, if you go for a Cmin6, that would be a Melodic Minor implication (1b35maj6) But wait a sec, Cmin6 = CEbGA... and if we invert that, we get an Amin7b5 = ACEbG... lots of relationships and crossover...

Unlike a 7 note Major scale, a minor key, has 11 potential notes depending on the chord peogression structure.
A combo of all minor key possibilities =
A Bb B C D Eb E F F# G G#

Steve Adelson

Scott, that sounds like good, rigorous training. We didn't have the same approach where I went to school but I did similar things on my own time, just not quite in depth.

As for that second point, now we're getting into implications and supplementation. That's a whole rabbit whole in its own right.

Steve, that's also a good point. The minor scale sound is probably one of the most versatile sounds in the western music lexicon.

Yep, it was pretty rigorous; I finished school 1995, and have been toiling away ever since. I started music when I was pretty young... I was pretty much the worst student in my class, hahah

So yeah, Harmonic Minor has some interesting things going on; Also very worthwhile discussing, especially if someone wants to go beyond being just the sort of player who just plays fingerings. (And of course, that's okay too! Nothing wrong with getting a few notes under your fingers and running with them!)

A Harmonic Minor ABCDEFG#

A Min/maj7
B min7b5
C Maj7#5
D min7add11
E 7b9
F maj7#11
G #dim7

The diminished aspect is HUGE here, and the relationship to diminished and dominant 7th chords is worth discussing (Pat Martino has some VERY cool practical transformations from dim7 to dom7 among other things). But if you look at the occurrence of diminished 7ths
Bmin7b5 = BDFA. BDF = Diminished triad. Throw an E under that, and you have an E7 with no 3rd, (Tertially stacked 3rds. Take the V Chord (oooo ii-v) E7 and you have EG#BD with the G#BD aspect equalling another inversion of B dim7th. Don't forget that in dim7th, any note can be the root, so it's stacked min3rds and the internal tritone make for symmetric stacking. And in the vii chord, it's also G#dim7; G#BDF BUT that could also be E7 without a root. Harmonic minor has 3 instances where V is heavily implied. Interestingly enough, in a Major scale viimin7b5 BDFA (Bmin7b5) also gets used as a G7 substitution.

I'm not sure if the "minor sound" is quite as flexible as the "dominant" one; Dom7 chords take more tensions in pretty much ANY context than a minor chord will. Plus, a major triad with no 7th (or just a 3rd with no 5th) can easily imply a dominant 7th, or just a plain 'ole major thing. Minor 3rds all by themselves imply one thing; minor.

As a soloist, I will get away with a lot more playing over a major chord than I will over a minor one (I can play a min3/#9 over a major chord, even at a country gig, and it's gonna be okay... Play a maj3 over a minor chord, and one will most usually sound like a mistake has happened... )

And of course, C Melodic Minor (Jazz Minor) has some really interesting stuff going on; heck, if you got good at the scale with both hands and kind of played each over top of each other you would get some decent tonalities without a doubt, and one could just figure out the naming conventions as you went;

C Melodic Minor (Jazz Minor if you ascend and descend the same)

C min/maj7 (Melodic minor)
D min7b9 (Dorian b9)
Eb dom7#5 (Lydian Augmented)
F dom7#11 (Lydian Dominant)
G dom7b13 (Mixolydian b6)
A min7b5 (Locrian nat9)
B dom7 altered (Altered)

And, each degree yields it's own modes also, same as major and harmonic minor.

Really, if a person were to get extremely warm and fuzzy with those 3 scales (Major, melodic minor, and harmonic minor) and all of their respective harmonizations, one would have a lot of musical ammo at one's disposal...

Jazz often goes Dorian... just saying...

fun as always, Josh...

three fingers to rule them all... and in the darkness, wail...

I can't help but think that was aimed at me, Greg... maybe a "Hey dude, can you quit posting, we hate you" might be more in order... hahaha No worries, all good.

Yes, Dorian to Mixolydian moments happen often in Jazz, and without a doubt ii -V-I is a major staple of the genre. BUT... there are other colours in the genre also, and the topic here is Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, and Natural Minor so I am thinking that what I posted wasn't too off base. I just like posting/reading about music stuff and Josh's video was a good one that I thought I might stir the hornet's nest and, y'know contribute?

As for Melodic minor/Jazz minor... (Which is what I stated and I think you are referring to)

Well, Will Leavitt dares to call a Melodic Minor Scale played the same way ascending or descending a "Jazz Minor Scale", and even went so far as to put it into a textbook used by millions of guitarists the world over since 1968, plus it's a very common text for the Berklee School of Music, (Hence the name) and contemporary music schools all over the world. Also, Will was/is a monster player (Very respected) in his own right. Anyways, here is a small excerpt from book 2 of his Modern Method that might hopefully clear things up a bit for you? Really good books...