There is an old adage, that "you can't sell the milk, when you give the cow away for free". You undervalue yourself, and bar/restaurant owners have memories like elephants on this "you played for free last time, why should I pay you now". Tough to go down from zero. ONLY play for free if you have a solid commitment to come back at full price another time. ( in essence you played for half, but you got your foot in the door and another date - up to you to fill it up the first time to prove your draw power)

I found this really insightful YouTube that puts it into a more modern and valid perspective.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=essNmNOrQto[/youtube]

I want you all to get out and play, I just want you do to it with respect too!
hope this helps,
Dave B

"You work for the Government, don't you?" haha

That's excellent DBro.

A few years ago, Brett came to Montreal to play his stick and that was the main reason why I was there. We talked a bit together and you know, like me, that he is an excellent stickist. This night was an open mic event. I talked to the manager of this place and I didn't like their approach. I never asked to Brett if he was paid...it's not my business. But the manager didn't want to pay musicians to play there. The place was full of people. I remembered that I pay about 4$ for a coffee. So...I never went back to this place and I stay away from these "open mic" events. Bar owners are abusing on musician's back...not for me...sorry.

I agree for the most part Dave. I've done two freebies. But as you've said, sometimes a freebie leads to payola.
Last one I did a few weeks ago got me an in store credit, Doing one Friday night thats paying $100...
I cant really ask for more.,,,, but nice to get the feet wet. Possibly a freebie on Saturday night too, which may lead to bigger things.

Alain, open mics can sometimes lead to gigs,,,,so I'm not averse to doing them...

cheers,
kev

Mmmmh, very interesting thread. I agree with Dave and Kevin who are both right. My residential happy hour gig at the irish pub (1-2 times a month during the cold season is not paid. BUT, it has brought me numerous well paid gigs in said irish pub with 2 bands (my duo with my son on drums and my rock cover band) and many other paid gigs. So what begun as a way for me to play in front of an audience has evolved to advertising my acts and getting new jobs for them. I still have mucho fun playing the happy hour (and getting free drinks with a delicious supper) because I know it leads to paid jobs. Here's a sample of one of them with yours truly on bass. Sorry for the sound quality. It's been shot with an iPhone.

http://youtu.be/nVmtWlR_Z1g

Dave, I can't agree enough with this your main point--don't play for free and don't give away your creative work and toil for nothing. But it's also complicated, as Kev and Olivier and the rest point out. Unfortunately, every bar owner that doesn't want to pay you will point out that the gig at his/her place will open the door to other paying gigs--which may be true, but someone's got to start paying somewhere. "And every time we play for free, it reinforces the idea that musicians will play for free." That's what the people who make a living creatively say and they have a point--to a point.

I'm really torn on that Catch 22. There's just no getting around the fact that Plumber Joe--for all his skill and training--just couldn't give a damn whether he comes into my bathroom to show his skills, unless there's cold hard money on the line. But us musicians are thirsty, thirsty people who would probably pay money ourselves just to get a huge crowd to listen to us (so how much we talking here to get a huge crowd, he wonders, thinking that free beer would probably do the trick...What, that's only a keg or 4 and maybe some munchies....)

Open mike night's are a great way for people to play out without having a whole show and for both them and the audience to get their feet wet. But I'm also against the abuse of open mike night, where the same people keep coming back to perform but no one ever gets paid. And the bar/tavern/coffee shop is full and cooking along.

I do a great number of creative things that result in a tangible deliverable: music sound files, posters, music videos, album covers and art and illustrations of a wide-ranging graphical nature, and since I've already outed myself as a English teacher--I've got poems, essays, short stories, and even 2 novels that I've put out there as creative output. I've been "paid" very little for very little of it. I hope that's not a estimation of my creative worth--but of course it is! Nothing validates like cold, hard cash!

Making a living as a musician/composer is a bit beyond this topic but it's very closely related. But playing for free is generally bad, unless it results in more gigs down the line--which unfortunately reinforces the idea that musicians should play for free because they'll eventually start getting paid for it.

Every performer at the Super Bowl--from Beyoncé on--not only doesn't get paid a dime for playing (except some expenses), some were actually asked to pay the NFL to play!

From last year's Super Bowl:
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... time-show/

I don't know how to get out of that Catch 22. Pay to Play is a thing, and I bet a few people here have some experience with it. I'd love to hear more!

Cheers, thanks Dave! Nice topic!

I knew about your story Kev...it was nice for you...congrats on this one. On my side I played so much for free...I'm tired of this situation. At least I expect a meal and 2 drinks. If I remember well I think you have a nice job appart of music (which is really good honestly)...it's not my case...I need to play to survive.

There's always more than money to be gained from a gig. If there isn't, you should probably pass on the gig, unless you are only doing it for money, in which case, do the gig, but don't complain about it.